rascal

Pond...so why is it YOUR business to attempt to discredit another posters account? What qualifies you personally to evaluate whether a persons posts are of value to the community at large? What qualifies YOU to annalyse another posters mental state and determine whether they are healthy enough to present their view point?? I am telling you...I get it...you don`t see the value...yet strangely enough...occasionally others do...does that give you the right or moral responsibility to try to shut another person up..to sensor their input??? Good grief...didn`t we get enough of that in twi? Who made YOU judge and jury over what or WHO is effective or WHAT is beneficial? Does Pawtucket need to have a mental evaluation exam determining a persons elegibility for presentation of their experiences?? Their opinions?? Seriously....Why not share YOUR insight, YOUR experiences, YOUR opinions about the topic at hand (these are areas that you personally are uniquely qualified to present) rather than a relentless attack on people who don`t share your pov? What is wrong with you...that you have to make everyone else who doesn`t see things as YOU do as either mentally unstable, a whiner, an attentions seeker, or embarked on some kind of agenda? I am telling you Pond...I have seen BRILLIANCE in your posts when you comment on the topic at hand...and yet in your personal attacks ..in your sly inuendos of mental instability against folks who don`t share your philosophy...I have seen a brutal cruelty. I have seen you rally the troops and take great pleasure in the taunts generated by your accusations that my opinions are thus because of how crazy I am..... and you know what?? You almost succeded...your perversion of my statements...your presentation of me as a danger to myself as a my family .... was so frightening ...it was so disturbing that you could twist my statements and present a picture of me that was so twisted ...that I quit posting for quite a while. I have got it figured out now. See....I understand that My perceptions of MY experiences are valid....MY feelings of anger over the betrayal and harm caused to my young brothers and sisters ...is acceptible...MY view point is one that is permitted to be expressed. Right, wrong, sane or lunatic.....whether anybody cares to hear about it or not. What is wierd is when someone else takes it upon themselves to use any means possible to discredit a poster when one cannot reasonable counter the points attempting to be discussed as we all continue this journey. Please...again...walk YOUR path ...share YOUR unique insight.....stop trying to discredit mine.

I was too sickened by the whole mess to elaborate on it lifted....They ran out of money to fight pure and simple.... lifted...they couldn`t even scrape enough up to go to court to counter the slander. The judge without investigating the allegations....appointed a new board made up of old members and new ones from the folks that filed the lawsuit...but gee whiz...there was more of them that voted to hold their meeting on a night that several of the old board members were absolutely unable to attend....They promptly voted the attorney that savaged mike and Joannes reputations as the new president...(ya think there mightta been a conflict of interest there?) ....returned the woman who was originally fired for incompetence to her position on the board. Mike and Joanne were forced out of the organization that they founded. The new board immediately opened the warehouse that the attorny had previously testified to the judge and gotten an injunction filed to shut it down by swearing that it was a hazardous pit filled with 90 percent junk and then consequently made quite a fortune off of the alleged crap. Now they advertise for volunteers to help replace the stock on the shelves...with yet more of the stuff they told the judge was garbage IN the warehouse that they claimed was a hazard. The battered womens shelter that`s support was the whole purpose of the warehouse???You guessed it...though there was no reason to shut IT down....though they -ied ...oops I guess *mistakenly assumed*...to the judge and said it was unoccupied and had the residents cast to the streets .... is not yet reopened. Evil triumphs...the good guys are screwed...it sucks...my previous point was ...that is the difference in having unlimited resources for legal fees and normal folks like you and me who simply try to stand up for what is right. I have lost all confidence in the legal system :( I don`t believe that Twi leaders didn`t NOT get prosecuted because they weren`t guilty .... they just had the mega bucks to afford the most viscious bottom feeder attornies.

Oh I don`t know Bumpy, I guess that you just have to make what`s important a priority in life :) Eyes, I fish in Michigan. I ride horses in Tennessee ...I would enjoy meeting you in either state :) If my brother sets up his jump school in the keys, I`ll invite you down and we can do it together. I`d like to learn to scuba dive while I am there and maybe even do some exploring with the kayaks. I also have an old harley sportster that needs to be worked on. I plan on doing some of THAT kind of riding as well when the kids are grown. There is this awsome neighbor...she is in her 60s...that is a legend in the motorcycle world. She rides a hog....she teaches safety courses....even teaches the POLICE how to ride their bikes!!!! That`s MY kind of gal...she has promised to let my girls and I in her class :)

No kidding Eyes??? It sounds like we have the same list!!! OMG... Cept I have to wait a few years for the kiddos grow up before I jump out of a perfectly good air plane...lol My brother, when he retires from the military is planning on opening a jump school in the fla keys :) In addition to THAT list... I want to ride the appalachian trail on my horse. if I am not tired after that, I may go coast to coast :) That is all a long way off yet though. If I ever get tired of horses, the husband and I have talked about buying a boat and just hugging the coast of lake michigan and superior...visiting all the quaint little tourist towns :)

I have to agree that is a pretty rediculous statement about being guilty verses being prosecuted. Gee...wonder why twi has to pay millions in legal fees to stay out of hot water.... In my own world.... have stood by helplessly watching people of character assassinated in court by a vindictive attorney....their reputations destroyed because someone wanted to run the organization that they had founded.... My friends had to drop the fight...had no recourse to address the lies and slander after their 13, 000 dollar retainer had run out...they flat ran out of money to fight. Was it right what the attorny did? Was it truthfull? Was the out come just?? Oh Hayal no...but that is what happens when the opponent has unlimited resources for legal fees The sad truth in America today, it isn`t who is right or wrong in the courts, but who has enough money to pay for the best attornies :(

Life IS good :)

I missed it Bramble, sorry...it was still a brilliant line, thanks for letting me borrow it. Absolutely, the original post was intended to be offensive ...it`s just not any fun if folks won`t rise to the bait :) Wow Eyes, you are one busy lady!

You don`t get it, obviously Pond. That doesn`t negate the value of what we speak of, nor negate what has been accomplished when brave people DID speak out about what happened, instead of slinking away with their tail tucked between their legs like whipped dogs. I DO find the crimes committed atrocious...heinous...evil...unconscionable...no most weren`t prosecuted, but that damned sure didn`t make them any less damnably guilty. Go ahead...ignore what happened, dismiss the pain and suffering, pretend like it doesn`t matter. That is precisely what the ministry wishes we would do...just shut UP...so they can go back to hiding...sneaking ...skulking in the dark and destroying lives in the name of God. Go ahead Pond, ignore what happened if you wish...ignore your spiritual and moral responsibility....hide behind scriptures if it makes you feel better....but don`t try to prevent me from doing what I see as the morally, ethically, and spiritually correct thing, as in the speaking up concerning my knowledge of a dangerous, life destroying cult of evil people whom CONTINUE to use the name of God and scriptures to ensnare. Walk your own path pond, please allow me to walk mine.

Agreed Bramble :) I will end this year with a day of horse back training and riding with our kiddoes....on a gorgeous day....Marveling at the great good fortune that I am permitted to enjoy. The world class mare that I begin to train for my life partner....My exceptionally cool children with whom I get to travel this path...my home in the country with the bazillion animal strays that have found their way to me ...aand now call this humble place home...lol I will continue to feverishly prepare for the musical with some of the kids, I will be participating in another one for the younger ones following....there are the yearly karate championships to be preparing for, I will be helping some of my kids study and pass their black belt exams....there is the yearly treck to upper michigan to look forward to :) What a great year to look forward to! and Bramble, if I may close with your line, because I think it is truly a classic.... *I`ll just continue on, being a mom, employee, sister, friend (I`ll throw in wife here for me, as well) Greasespotter, as best I can, which may include `whining` about ugly times in TWI* :)

Pond, on my life, my motives, and my views.....yes, I`d say that I am the quality control police :) Everything within those parameters are nothing more than very poor (we cannot even claim educated) guesses on your part. Very good Hamm...I agree...the past is what makes me who I am today.... You know...I don`t understand not being outraged over what happened...whether it was 10, 20 or 100 years ago. and despite what pond says...it isn`t even about me necessarily, but all of us...all of us who lost loved ones...who turned our backs on our families...who gave up our educations, our careers. Why NOT be outraged that our teenaged sisters were drugged raped and tossed aside ... why NOT be angry over our sisters and brothers who died.... No, I know this isn`t the holocost, or 911, or the tsunami that killed 200,000....but it was a huge deal to us who experienced it directly...it was our own disaster...viewed up close and personal...our lives impacted. To ignore what happened...to dismiss the villains who committed the evil atrocities, in my book is cowardly. Only in carefull examining what happened, what made us vulnerable, how we were decieved...how to recognize the evil in spite of the sheeps skin of christianity that a wolf dons...is all integral in preventing it from happening again. My God Pond...since way dale and greasespot...since people have been allowed to tell what happened...since people have been allowed to get good and mad about mistreatment...as near as I can tell...20, 000 plus people...have made their way to freedom...who knows how many people have been prevented from joining that group..... Good LORD....people ho would have NEVER known the truth...NEVER had the strength to leave knowing that there was life outside of twi...had we just tucked our tails when once aware of the truth...meekily forgiven the perpetrators of evil...and walked away. Tens of thousands of people freed from the tierany of living under rediculous standards oppressed by lunatic leaders who had final say so in everything in your life from where you vacationed to when you went to the grocery, to your finances ...right down to demaning to know your schedual down to when you had sex with your spouse. The children that have been saved the grief from growing up with legalistic freakishly anal parents. The sick freak that was running the place has been ousted....the rest of em don`t dare stick a toe out of line now..knowing that they are being watched and legal actuion is a very real possibility. I say keep whining keep bitching keep talking about the past untill the day we die...if it saves one single soul from becoming entangled in the snare and devoured by the ravening wolves. To do anything ELSE in my opinion would be dishonorable, and cowardly.

Bramble, I don`t get it either. If one doesn`t want to contribute to the topic at hand ...why would they simply post to be unpleasant?? Pond, when you decide to make a comment on something that you ARE qualified to expound on...such as your experiences or your opinions on the subject at hand, I will then be more than willing to engage you in conversation.

Bramble, you made some excellent observations that I didn`t want to get lost in the argument.... Many times people will justify attacks and bad behavior because we were taught that people who reject twi doctrine were some how inferior spiritually.

OK, my post wasn`t in connection with that. I was trying to make another point entirely. I have seen posters from either side of the issue cross the line from productive discussion to cutting remarks and derision that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

CMAN ..I agree with you.... Rather than address my opinion...Pond has to annalyse my mental health as to WHY it is my opinion...my reaction was a tad strong, but I am tired of having my character, my mental faculties and whatever else brought into question rather than just addressing the topic at hand. Bumpy when unable to discuss the topic at hand simply enjoys insulting the poster, hoping to get a rise...thus securing his morning teas entertainment.... I am not here for your entertainment, bumpy. What do you contribute besides insults and baiting?

Gosh folks, I just guess that I see folks doing the best they can to come to grips with what has happened...this web site was designed to tell the other side of the story...the one nobody was allowed to hear in twi. It has succeded beyond anyones wildest imaginations....the fact that so many many people have ended up being helped was probably a huge suprise..... We have been free to investigate those forbidden thoughts, unleash those suppressed emotions, examine the feelings and thoughts stifled for so many years :( Guys so many of us learned to actually jump start our critical thinking processes that had been put on hold for decades... It is here at greasespot that we are free to take this stuff out...this stuff that we can`t tell anybody else....examine it, figure out how it all ended up so wrong.... Best of all...I have found *me* the real person underneith all of the *renewed mind* the girl that was passionate about animals and rescues and art...the person who`s values and perceptions were demed so unworthy as dismissed. With out all of you here...all who have participated in contributing their ideas, experiences and impressions....I don`t think that I would have ever been able to find that balance. I know that I am not the only one that has benefitted from this place. I guess that it just hurts me to see anyone here disparaged, or the immense good to be had in this place devalued when people maybe just don`t always see the entire picture of who is being benefitted at any particular time.

Rhino..I was NOT referring to any particular poster or incident...least of all sogwap. Where did you get that? I was referring to posts and posters on both sides of the issue. Pro ministry and anti ministry. There is a way to treat one another respectfully and with courtesy no matter what your personal pov is...ESPESCIALY if one claims to be of the Christian persuasion. I am at a loss when anybody thinks that the more insulting or hateful they can be, some how makes them right, or the winner of an argument. We are all free to post here. I repeat, I do not believe anybody has been treated any worse than I have as far as the insults, the aspersions cast on my character , my motives or my integrity as a person because of the pov I hold.....to claim that pro ministry people are some how treated consistantly more horrible by everyone is not correct. What I don`t have any respect for is nastiness from either side. Look at a couple of the newer folks...they have posted pro ministry...pro forgivness...they have posted their opinions in a loving manner, you could SEE the compassion with which they presented their views....and were treated with the same caring courtesy. What I post is simply my thoughts, I do not need approval, I do not need to sway anybody to my side of the question...we are all learning as we participate...no matter what direction that you approach the issue from. I have always held the opinion that God has lead each of us down a unique path...and that each of us have valid insight and experiences to share...and that any one of us might hold the key to anothers break through in an area that has been a source of frustration... To assume that one is not welcome, simply because of responses....or ones view point is not appreciated or does not have merrit, would be in my opinion, erronious.

Pond, I usually don`t respond to you because you make such rediculous assumptions about me, my motives my life, and my mental health..etc. Here`s a novel thought!!! How about reading what I write...instead of always playing the arm chair shrink...trying to find hidden meaning and assigning unhealthy motives because my pov is so different than yours? Let me state for the record.....that you are NOT in possession of enough facts to make an educated guess or to pass judgement on my motives. You are NOT a psychiatrist nor my therapist, nor I`d even guess even remotely connected to the mental health field or you wouldn`t presume to make such silly assumptions about people that you do not know nor are in possession of even the most basic of facts. Educated legitimate professional just don`t DO that. That being said, is why I generally keep you on ignore because of your history of presumptions ....taking my comments and applying hidden meanings and making inuendos pointing out shadows of illness ....and then presenting your assumptions your or perceptions as valid facts. Let me state again......MY opinion is.......that THEIR repentance is between them and God...I just don`t give a damn....and WON`T until they repent...AND apologize...AND make amends...as is laid out in the scriptures as the actions of a person whom has experienced Godly sorrow. Until then....they themselves, their spiritual state is between them and God and I will CONTINUE to despise them for what they have done, just as Jesus showed his contempt in his day for those who brutalized in God`s name....not just to me...but thousands of innocent victims utilizing God and scriptures as their tools to commit evil. ....and THAT my girl is between ME and God. This you are welcome to comment on and I will attempt to respond politely and civily. Anything else.. your uneducated assessments of my spirituality, and my mental health ... the annalysis of my child hood for clues to my present disgust with abusive monsters.... attempting to portray my view point as some how unhealthy because it doesn`t agree with yours....and pronouncing proclamations as if they had some kind of validity...because in truth me, my family, my capabilities as a wife and mother IS not, nor has it ever been any of YOUR business...and I will refuse to comment. Are we clear?

Post toasties??? LMAO ..it took me a miniute to get it :)

I don`t know Linda, maybe it all just seems that way from ones pov. I think that I have been slammed and attacked for my opinions just as hard as anybody else around here. Maybe when it is you personally on the recieving end of harsh critisizm......you feel like there is an organized mindset against your ideas and opinions...when maybe in truth what is happening is, that everyone is expressing their own pov, and that depending on any given day...depending on who`s present...there will be more on one side of an issue than another. I disagree about sharing middle of the road or positive stories....I believe that it is all in ones presentation. Some of us are more diplomatic than others in expressing themselves. There are posters here that respectfully present their pov without the insults and name calling from both sides of the issues ...and they are the ones who are respected. Come in here declaring your stand and anyone who had experiences different are liars or psychotic or whiners or accuse them of agendas.......on EITHER side of an issue and you have problems. .....What??? Then the poster wants to act all offended and proclaim that there is some sort of conspiracy?? Do we need pats on the back for validation in order to post our pov??? Is that required??? Come on...to claim that one doesn`t post because their opinion is in the minority .... I am sorry, but it seems like simply an excuse . Come on guys...we are ALL free to post here and as long as we remain respectful, we generally are treated with that same courtesy that we offer others. To accuse the posters here of an agenda or pawtucket and the administrators of having favorites ...is a disservice to the people who frequent these forums and the folks that work so hard to make it the wonderful place that it is.

SO if there is a seedy underbelly of pm`s...why not just keep communication above board and out here where all can see? I don`t get it, I don`t understand why people would slink around behind the scenes spreading rumors or gossip :( Ex, I don`t know what is going on. I don`t know who is saying what to you behind the scenes .. I am sorry that anyone would use pm`s to hurt :(

Yeah well he treated that woman a WHOLE lot different than he did the money changers and pharacees that were taking advantage of or hurting people in God`s name...imagine that. I agree there is plenty to learn from Jesus in how he dealt with people... As far as I am concerned ....twi leaders are NO different than the pharacees who used their authority as leaders for God to hurt and steal .....you remember ...the ones that he declared *whited sepulchers* they were filled with death and corruption on the inside and shiney white on the outside....oh my now..THAT wasn`t very forgiving of mean old Jesus Guess what? I saw a documentary on Jeruselem one time.....the narrator explained that the sepulchers...the above ground tombs that were painted white....it was done only to those whom died of contagious diseases...it was a warning to all to stay away lest they become infected with the disease also.... :blink: Imagine THAT!!! SO much we can learn from Jesus :) When and IF these people ever repent, AND make amends...shrug THEN I might feel a small obligation to consider forgiving them. Untill THEN....I will consider their motives and the scriptures used to fascilitate evil of no account or value to me... It is between them and God.

((Jeff)) ....great thoughts....thanks for taking the time to share them with me. I guess that what I am po`d about is the abuse suffered by innocent young men and women.......I just can`t seem to give a damn about what the intentions of the ones that were causing the suffering :( Those that did it claiming that GOD almighty required this of us......I guess I must appear to be pretty harsh and judgemental...I am sorry ....I just don`t honestly care what their motives were...people were destroyed and lives were lost :( I cannot fathom God being behind the people who committed such atrocities in his name.

((Ex))) I love it here. I love you. I really appreciate any who take the time and energy to post of their lives and insights in this place. This place...the conglomeration of people and their experiences, the combination of insight has been incredibly helpful to so many of us in learning to think again...in the finding of ourselves. The folks that leave, well I guess maybe they just don`t see the whole picture here. Many of us just get busy with life ....the ones that are shut down? I don`t know who you mean....but I don`t believe the rules here are too hard to follow...The only people I have seen banned were the ones actively hurting folks....shrug Also...maybe the folks that were shut down, we might not have seen it in the open forums...the harm they were doing was not readily apparent to the on lookers.... what they were doing was sneaky and underhanded and hurtful behind the scenes...I know of one such scenario and the party is whining and crying publicly about mistreatment.. Yeah lots of wonderful folks have moved on...but lots of wonderful new folks have arrived to get to know and appreciate as well. Each of us..(I know everyone gets sick of hearing this :) ) EACH of us has important pieces of the puzzle to share so that all can see the bigger picture...I am always tickled when someone shares their puzzle pieces here :) I love you Ex, I think greasespot is what we make it...you, me, all who generously contribute bits and pieces of our lives. I wish that you could see yourself and greasespot through my eyes :)

Jeff, I guess that I feel like the *snare* was well disguised. No matter how strong, or how sharp we were. Proverbs says...*in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey* ....in other words.. Any prey animal can flee if they see the trap before it is sprung. The clever predator baits the disguised snare with something that has irresistable attraction, in order to lure the prey that normally has the speed and agility to remain far out of the predators grasp. The prey approaches unsuspecting, focused on the bait...the predator remains hidden untill the trap is sprung and then whammo...when the prey finally realizes that they have been ensnared...it is too late to escape. TWI leaders were the predators, the ravening wolves if you will.......that masqueraded as ministers, the bait was the scriptures that offered us hope, the ministry had the appearance of being a safe haven...the very snare itself, the prison to keep us from freedom... we were the prey that were lured unwittingly into entrapment, our resources and lives to be consumed at will, by the ravening wolves...:( We were naieve and gullible, unaware that people were so despicable as to use the bible and God`s name to decieve.

Nope, no sit alerts....no communication telling us vpw was ill....just a short terse paragragh read to us over the phone in the middle of the night that we were to take down exactly. We were to call a meeting the next day with no explanation, we were to read the paragragh exactly as dictated, we were to dismiss the twig and forbid anyone talking about it. You`d a thought if the powers that be believed in prayer, or cared for vp that they would have had the tens of thousands of believers energized and praying....as it was...we weren`t considered important or effective enough for even a phone call to alert us to the need :(