rascal

Agreed :) They have not been listened to in the entire time I have known guest spouse....lol

Thought that I posted this earlier. I have a set of thessalonians. I will see if my spouse can be parted from them if you are interested.

Slaves to Jesus? Not a problem, slaves to guys whom USED the name of Jesus, and the masquerade as a minister to gain trust..... to steal, kill, and destroy...yeah I have a problem there.

Well not choosing to accept the legalism does not mean that it didn`t exist, which was the question asked, I believe. I do agree though, that corpes and wow was when it was more evident.

I disagree entirely. I saw as early as 1979 it being taught that obedience to leadership = obedience to God ....Peter walking on the water was the example given. You should remember oldies, you were there at that ark limb meeting for wows. I saw harsh legalism as early as 1981. It got steadily worse depending on which area you were in.

White Dove, I am not worried about what you have to say *proof wise* official input or not, because I have a clear conscience. I will be interested in seeing you finally admit that you cannot prove your allegations.

Wow WTH, that is the first post I have ever read from you that has made any sense to me! As far as blaming those we trusted?? Shoot yeah, but as ministers of God...one would EXPECT them to be trustworthy :)

I think it boils down to Dove doesn`t like what our experiences say about an organization that he invested a tremendous amount into. Either the organization lied or we do....It is much easier to brand us here at gs as liars than it is to come to grips with the criminal activity that occurred in twi and honestly re access ones understanding and beliefs. As far as my opinion about vp and lcm, drugging and rape?? We have John Lynn admitting publicly that it happened, We have girls on more than one web site that have come forth and said that it happened to them. You have girls that have come forth and said that it was attempted upon them...You have girls who have come forward and told about refusing and being excommunicated from twi, their families and friends, and their reputations slaughtered. It is a matter of court records that rosie and the bot DID know of the crimes committed by lcm All of these first hand accounts and not a single one has been contacted by twi and charged with slander. The people who DID bring charges against twi ... were settled with out of court. It is my belief and opinion that these events are factual and occurred...does THAT communicate to your standard Dove? Now grown adults who were then children, have come forward with personal accounts of being abused at the hands of twi leadership...parents have come forth with stories of abuse of their children at the hands of twi leadership .... people have come forth whom have witnessed the abuse of children at the hands of twi leadership.... Court documents more than one twi leader who has been imprisoned for child sexual abuse. It is my belief and opinion that physical and sexual abuse of children occurred at the hands of twi leaders. I myself was *counceled* to have an abortion as a requirement in order to remain in the center of God`s will, and remain alive, and unpossessed. Others have come forward and said *it happened to me too*! It is a fact for me and my opinion that I was not the only one required to abort wanted children. Here are some more first hand facts that have been brought forward here. It is a fact that people were raped following twi leaders orders hitchhiking to lead. It is a fact that people were grievously injured while involved in twi programs It is a fact that at least one person unable to function after being grievously injured on lead was cast out of twi and died alone. It is a fact that people died following twi teachings. All of these events have been related by first person participants. It is my belief and opinion that theses events occurred as related. You have to admit, that no matter HOW it is worded....the above statements paint an ugly picture of an organization that would nurture and produce such evil.

Sounds like someone is trying to scare us into silence now :)

Linda, that is terrifying. I am sorry that happened to you.

Thank you Rhino. I have yet to figure out where exactly Dove claims that I am lying. He is free to call me a liar, yet he offers no proof, not even in reference to a particular incident. I don`t think that he even really believes that. It seems to me however, that it is very important to him to discredit me personally so that my pov and experience lack credibility.

Who is making stuff up??? You need to cough up some proof yourself buddy, or start retracting your own allegations :(

Only in YOUR opinion Dove.... That is a lie Dove, I have invented nothing.....

That was taken rather out of context and misapplied don`t you think Dove? The first part is what pawtucket said concerning greasespot`s purpose, the second part is what I said....if a secondary benefit like helping people leave twi, or a third benefit that people get comfort finding out that they were not the only ones...or people find old friends ...etc...I think that is pretty cool too :)

Rhino, I am sorry, you seem to be sensing defensiveness and defending turf that just wasn`t my my intention at all. I feel like you are reading animosity in my posts. I know that it is my lack in communication skills, and it seems like the harder I try to clarify, the more you read aggression. I`ll try to do better.

It was a rhetorical question, not one directed at you Rhino. In my opinion....I think he had the vision, he has guided the place, it has been successful, who am I to come in at the 11th hour and critisize and complain, think that I know how it should be run? Kind of ugly to read into it that I was implying that pawtucket was some kind of mog....who`s opinions and ideas are unbroachable (is that a word?) that this is twi ish....or that you couldn`t pm him with your ideas...shrug In my opinion, it is simply a courtesy issue.

Ok...the way that I see this work is....(I may be completely off base here) Dove shares his experiences and perspectives, and the path that he has been led since leaving....and someone reads and says WOW...I can identify with that... Mike shares his experiences and perspective and somebody says ...*hey That makes sense to me*... Rascal shares her experiences and thoughts on a matter and someone else sees that and says...*hey that happened to me too...I thought that I was the only one* We share our lives and our thoughts, our perspectives post twi..and there it is for all to see...that God is good and that he doesn`t forsake you when you leave. Each of us has the opportunity to share pieces of the puzzle of the over all picture of twi... How accurate is the picture going to be if certain people say....no no only MY pieces are important and constantly try to fling others from the table to prevent anyone from seeing any part of the picture, other than what they want them to see? It is when people take it upon themselves to decide what is relevant or important, or when folks try to control others input, or denigrate the poster as unimportant, or that their particular path is the ONLY path .... that things become stifled and unpleasant.

Rhino, I should have specified....provided a line of demarcation between what pawtucket said...and my thoughts that followed. He said that this sight was to tell the other side of the story.....what followed were MY thoughts ...not a tool to entice people into leaving twi....You are absolutely correct ....pawtucket never said that...I just wasn`t clear in my punctuation... I would never presume to speak for anyone but myself.

Good point Rhino. I was mainly talking about Dove and Mike actively trying to block the *negative* aspects shared because that might frighten people away. As far as what Pawtucket puts on the front page??? Who are we to second guess the choices? This place has been hugely successful to so many, many people in sorting out the lies. Twi has decreased from 25000 to less than 5000 in the 6 years or so since he opened the doors here. I have to feel like this web sight has played a large part in getting the information out...in exposing the lies. I`d say that so far, it is a winning formula. I think God prepares us for the exit..Maybe he leads folks here...if it isn`r what will help that person, he will lead them else wghere, no doubt....The fact remains that this place is a place for deliverance from the lies that enslave people and keep them trapped in twi. One never knows what post will open the doors in someones understanding....which posters story will strike a chord...It is a tough tough thing to come to grips with...but I still think that God leads people here. I still think that God works in the people that are here in their sharings.....to try to limit or control what is shared to what one personally deems (I am not talking about you rhino) appropriate or helpful is in my opinion, limiting God.

Thanks JeffS. You are right on the money. When you relate your experiences, it usually isn`t accompanied with a back handed slap ....an insult or an in your face to anyone who didn`t share the idyllic experiences....When you talk about stuff, it isn`t to shout down and shut up people. I can hear what you have to say because I can see the love of God in your words. That makes all of the difference in the world no matter which side of the issue you are on. I can have respect for you as a christian, and as such, your opinion on christian matters will hold merit.

Pawtucket said that this sight is to tell the OTHER side of the story....not a tool to entice people into leaving twi. So that`s too negative??? Sorry, but twi was a really negative place to be for some of us....None wish more than I, that this wasn`t so. You don`t think ALL of us wish twi had been what we believed it to be???That we had not been able to spend our lives there in service to God , making a difference in the world today??? Start trying to cater to a select few whom might be encouraged to stay if things aren`t TOO negative would not really be honest. It stinks of hypocracy and agenda, and I`ll bet even twi ers would recognise it. Geeze it reeks of the love bombings to keep the newbies around untill they could *handle* the more *spiritual* aspects of twi :( Dove, if that is what you feel called to do, to have a web sight that isn`t too negative, because you believe that it will help people...maybe you need to start one, maybe that is what your calling is....rather than to try to force grease spot into the mold that you designe. The REASON that this web sight by in large gets negative, is because of your non stop attacks on peoples integrity, character and honesty. Leave folks alone to tell their story, and I will gaurantee that thos place will be a whole lot less negative. :)

Sounds like another pretty excuse to discourage people from talking about their twi experiences to me. Pawtucket never said that our accounts need to be provable in a court of law in order to discuss them here. That is something that you have taken upon yourself, Dove. I personally believe that God works in peoples hearts to get them out of that group. I think he prepares them and even on occasion leads them here....I believe that this can be one of the places that he can work through people to help one another. Dove, it isnt` up to you to play God. Deciding what information is helpful and what or who is not.

That is a VERY interesting point TBone. Many times I have seen God work in really horrible situations to bring things around to a positive conclusion....Did he cause the horrible situation to begin with?? I don`t think so. Did he cause us to be decieved? Did he cause us to be used? Did he cause the destruction of lives, the dissolusion of familuies??? If that is true...what the heck did the people that died learn???? I DO however firmly believe that he was there when we looked up to help us pick up the pieces and put them back together again. Sure, hopefully we are stronger, smarter, more vigilant for our experiences...but I`d sure be ....ed if I found out that God *caused* them to begin with.

Having been on the recieving end of some of your *extremely viscious verbal assaults*, Jonny.....I am at a loss as to understand why you would castigate Groucho for the same thing :( Why not start over fresh...as was the point, rather than using this thread that is intended to encourage civil discourse, to instead instigate yet more uncivil behavior? Are you looking for an apology Jonny? Are you offering any? Groucho made excellent points, and I personally think that great progress (maybe even because of this thread) has been made as far as being able to communicate without having someone constantly climbing you like a tree for your pov.

Potato, I think that the people who experienced the harsh treatment, their testimony can be at odds with what another person wishes to believe or remember about twi. It would be more comfortable to dismiss the accounts or discredit the one discussing it than to readjust ones opinions about a group that one has invested so much into. I am with you, common courtesy, just let folks talk.