rascal

Good nuff Jeff. Thanks! I guess that I just feel like these guys were masqueraders...decievers of people whom were hungry to know God. They wounded and destroyed innocents. I guess that I just have a hard time giving them ANY credit when I think of what they used the scriptures to do to my brothers and sisters.

I don`t think that you can pick and chose doctrines as a measuring stick for spiritual wholesomness..... If you read galatians 5. It will tell you EXACTLY what men whom exhibit the behavior of vpw are. It doesn`t say that it was a good work that has gone bad....It says that any who do what he did are *men of the flesh* and have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God. It has another entire catagory of the behaviors of men of the spirit... those would be the ONLY people Iwould trust to teach me of spiritual matters. Wierwille and Martindale are notin this catagory...there for everything that they taught is to be suspect. Oh and btw, I am finally feeling much better thank you for asking earlier this week, Jeff.

As far as which leaders believed what on exiting twi Oldies ?? That is silly...I suppose there are two types of people that left twi....be they leaders or followers.....those who in time, are able to get honest concerning the evil that occured, and those who will spend a life time making excuses for the evil that occured. One is to be respected, the other to be pitied.

Snort....then there are those who`s identity is SO wrapped up in who they were in twi...when we believed that we were God`s spiritual superstars....that they can`t get along in a world where everyone doesn`t still buy into their illusions of greatness. Look at me...look at the great man of Gawd...let me tell you what God`s will for YOU is....baaah They are in NO position to help anybody untill they start all over from a healthy spiritual base. I LOVE that God says to forgive, friend...you conveniently left out a HUGE part of the operation however....WHEN WHEN WHEN they repent and ask...:) In MY opinion....your *winning combo* operated according to twi dogma....allows evil to continue unchecked....Jesus certainly didn`t let the pharacees and money changers in the temple off the hook like you are suggesting....shrug...I chose to follow HIS example in this particular arena.

I am not referring to those leaders and people who have called a spade a spade from the very beginning. I have a lot of respect for folks who have the courage and honesty to stand up for what was right. I know that many were forced out for that, I know that many left rather than be a party to the dishonesty.

Oh HECK yeah......break out the pitch forks and torches...:) lol Gee Jonny, Sounds like you are a little sore because people don`t have any respect for these posers any more. Lets see.... THEY presented themselves as God`s ministers.... THEY won our allegiance and trust with the authority that they claimed as God`s ministers....sure sure...even IF they personally didn`t actively participate in the destruction of peoples lives...THEY stood by ...knowing what vpw`s TRUE spiritual nature was....their status as a *good guy* covering the true putrid nature of twi`s founder.....and THEY watched scriptures used as the tool to destroy people. THEY continue to chose to hide all of that (I think) because THEY are too cowardly to admit that they were mistaken to start all over again. Untill these folks honestly comes to grips with the spiritual corruption which they participated in, they really are in NO position to help anybody. It is nothing more than mental maste...er um exercise to pat themselves on the back and feel like they weren`t wrong. I repeat WHY would you cut anybody who is STILL being so patently dishonest any slack? I know it sounds really mean, but I say this with ALL of the compassion in my heart....UNTIL one gets rid of the ego, of the learned arrogance aquired in twi, untill ones get humble before God and start over from scratch....All you will ever amount to is a wannabee ....you haven`t got what it takes to really help people spiritually. Instead oh honesty and humility....all I see is folks desperately trying to prop up and patch their crumbling faulty foundation.

Great game :) Half time show was a treat, the commercials were a riot...the kids n I LOVED the napolean guy...mainly because our little white pony could have doubled for his horse :) Of course we loved the corny clydesdale commercials .. We are not even foot ball fans, but were biting our nails right up to the end.

Cut them some slack???WHY??? For what possible purpose?? Is what they are doing actually honest??? I don`t think so. Their egos STILL prevent them from honestly examining the foundation of their core doctrines. This dishonesty prevents them from teaching anything of value, imo :(

((((DWBH)))) Great points. I think, that if the *great* guys hadn`t been covering for vpw, if they hadn`t been nice, making the fellowship sweet...it would have been a whole lot harder for vp and lcm to pull off the deception. I guess they are a lot like the rest of us....having so much invested in twi....one doesn`t want to be wrong....so you do what you have to to white wash what happened....to down play the harm caused. I think you have to start all over again, the foundation that we built our lives on was wrong.

The thing is.....if we ignore what happened.....if we white wash vp`s reputation....if we deliberately disguise the fruits of his ministry....in addition to being dishonest.....things will never ever get fixed :( The people still enslaved and hurting continue, not knowing that it isn`t God`swill for them to be mistreated at the hands of these fake christians. If you can pretend that things were hunky dory...that the people who reveal the truth, are simply attention seeking liars...one remains living in error....it never gets *fixed* one is doomed to a life time of attempting to live up to a false standard, and false teachings.

I was a 17 yr old waitress. I earned the money. It was 100 dollars back then.

Yeah, it was wierd getting a tv....Thank God for lot`s of re runs, and the biograghy channel ... I think I have kind of caught up on what happened during the decade or so I was in isolation. I`d say the most impacting was our computer. I remember being scornfull of spouse....saying...*yeah..you get one...but I can see no earthly good it will do the REST of the family* :) Three guesses who the biggest user of the puter in the house hold is....lol

I have nothing to add Raf, other than you and your sister are in my thoughts and prayers.

Ron, your dog sounds awsome! Most large breed dogs take a couple of years to mature, espescially a male ...but it is seriously worth it. Some breeds, some dogs simply have a higher *prey drive* than others. I have taken in may a stray through the years, and the prey drive seems to be different in each dog. It doesn`t mean that they are bad dogs, they just have this instinct. The ones that had that high prey drive, there was nothingfor it but to keep an eye on them. It seems to afflict all breeds. I have a dane that is an absolute sweetie, the vet talked me into taking another one in...and she is a whole different story(cats have been dissapearing) I had an australian shepherd once that slaughtered anything she could get her teeth into...I have had shepherds that were dolls and shepherds that were prey driven. All were good dogs, some just needed more structure than others. I agree with the poster that said that the malamute is a breed that needs a job. The wolf side probably imbues him with great intelligence. I also agree that neutering him would make him much much more manageable. I think over all though, that he sounds like a wonderful companion, and that given time, he will understand the rules. I think that he will be absolutely worth the time and effort in the end :)

Excellent analogy OCW :)

I didn`t either until my spouse proposed. I kept thinking someone was going to stop us...that some one would say that I was unworthy. I kept waiting for the wrath of God to descend upon me :( It wasn`t until after the wedding that I started believing that it was going to be allowed.

Yeah, I was always so afraid that my husband would be judged harshly for choosing me. I never wanted him to be ashamed for marrying non corpes, I never wanted to bring him down spiritually. Maybe that was why I toed the line so closely.

It sucked, imo. All of the pressures and burdens but few of the perks or recognition. Felt kind of like a tolerated retarded sybling...but hey on the UP side...I was finally allowed in all of those super secret meetings for the spiritually mature :) Just call me sp12

I didn`t SAY that my spouse treated me as a second class citizen rhino...what a horrible thing to misconstrue my post to say. Our marriage was run by the book...according to way standards...we BOTH did the very best we could to follow the instructions laid out by our leadership, earnestly believing that was the way God expected us to act. As far as marrying into the corpes?? Well... with pop hitting the fan that year, my bc and tc told me that in their opinion...with things up in the air as they were...that they did NOT recommend entering residence at that time. My future spouse offered to teach me as best he could how to live that *it is written* standard. I thought it was a pretty good idea at the time...shrug.

Well I agree with you Groucho. I wasn`t really good enough to be REAL corpes. Everything I did was under scrutiny 24/7 to make sure that I was up to snuff spiritually. Anything I did would reflect on my spouses lack of spiritual discernment in chosing to marry non corpes. I felt like I had to work twice as hard at everything in order to prove myself, and not bring shame and disgrace to my spouse. I was not treated as a partner in our marriage because my spouse was in charge of my spiritual growth that I would have recieved through the program. He was the teacher, the over seer, the tc. I felt I had no voice. It certainly wasn`t a partnership :( Everything was measured by how quick I obeyed and how closely I followed instruction. I found it to be a really, really tough life...it was probably 15 years into the marriage before I finally stood up for myself and children for the first time. It was one of the toughest things that I have ever done. Before that, I l believed, as I had been taught....that God required implicit obedience to him.

I didn`t fit in the poll very well. I was corpes spouse...I think I accidently put in residence, but was only app for a few years, before marrying. I also had to leave because spouse left. I as the wife was not welcome if my spiritually tripped out husband didn`t write a loyalty oath, or jump through their hoops to remain in good standing.

I guess that what I am saying is...I don`t know if I believe that this is a trap christians fall into...(being desirous of control) or a symptom of one who is *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God* I mean, I have met many genuine Christians both in twi and since leaving....and I have yet to see one who manifests the fruit that would indicate that they are of the spirit...in short a born again christian behave as our leaders did. Most christians are not seducing or drugging and raping their sisters, sleeping with their brothers wives, abusing children and destroying lives and reputations at a whim. I think that our leaders were for the most part....wannabees...masqueraders...I think that maybe they even fooled themselves into believing that they were the genuine article.

Jeff, you always treat me so nice :) I guess that I have to wonder since Jesus told us how to recognize one another...by our *fruit*.... and honestly examining the fruit of these people.....if they really are my brothers in Christ at all. I see a different standard applied to false prophets...those whom would deceive and draw away from God... to wolves who would devour the sheep of the flock....the folks that sated the lusts of their bellies. I just have absolutely no use for them. They are God`s problem, not mine....he just tells us to stay away from the people that act like our leaders did.. Why.. because he hates them?? I think that maybe it is because they are dangerous....espeacially so, because they disarm our suspiscions by masquerading as his ministers :(

I don`t know Jeff. I think that there is a difference between one whom *falls short* which we all do, and one whom willingly embraces evil. Someone whom would put their lusts, their desires above the good of a brother or sister, someone whom would willingly destroy a brother or sister in a fashion possible if displeased or dissapointed in what they desired. The complete indifference with which they destroyed reputations, divided families, and cast people out ...to me indicates a complete lack of understanding of love...the greatest comandment... God said that we would know one another by who manifested the fruit of the spirit...he likewise told us that we would recognise those of the flesh by their fruit. Which category does wierwille and his leaders fall into?? Is there a difference in how we view a brother that has fallen short, and a man of the flesh who has no inheritance in the kingdom of God? Jesus seemed to think there was a difference, judging by how he treated the lady caught in adultery and the pharacees and money changers :(

Ohhhhhhhhhhh (((((((((((((((((((((Batcave)))))))))) doggone it, I didn`t know that was YOU!!!! How wonderfull!!! I am so absolutely thrilled for both of you. Ya know the guy is a keeper when you can take him on a camping trip with a bunch of ex culties and he can fit right in!!!! :) Dad gum, I have been thinking about you lately, and wondering how you have been doing .... so glad to hear the great news. I am sorry, I didn`t recognise you sooner. You left out absolutely beautiful, and an incredible voice that brings warmth whether you are speaking or singing :) Can you sing at your own wedding?