rascal

Oldies, you kind of make my point for me.... Solomon WAS a man of the flesh...though a very good one at times....but never the less of the *flesh* because spirit was not available no? Wierwille was supposed to be of the spirit.....that is a whole different critter.......they have been changed by the life impacting heart changing new birth. A man of the spirit ...they act different because of the holy spirit that they have living on the inside....There is a whole different way they behave because of what they are on the inside.....You can`t tell it from the outside or how they look or by their works....that is why we were given the lists of fruit one would manifest if one was of the spirit...another to warn us if they were of the flesh...... Wierwille was of the flesh according to his actions, He claimed to be a man of the spirit, I am willing to concede that maybe he even believed that his knowledge and studying might make him a man of the spirit....but obviously, if one views the fruit in his life honestly, If one follows the scriptures instructions.... there is only one catagory his life falls in to. Genuine christians, people of the spirit do not behave as many of us did in twi....I am afraid that our arrogance and the teachings that excuse and justify the behavior is to our detriment. I honestly wonder ....with our arrogance and knowledge to justify ourselves....it will prevent many of us from ever really becoming men and women of the spirit....doomed to continue to stumble through lives as pretenders...thinking that we have all of the answeres....making excuses for why we don`t.

Dooj, you described how I feel. Just because I am angry, deeply offended over how some imposters masqueraded as ministers destroying lives and families of the innocents that trusted them to be the ministers that they claimed to be........doesn`t mean that I am currently bitter or that it grows.....I am a reasonably happy well adjusted adult. I have managed to shed the dangerous thought patterns that kept me immobilized, and actually managed to accomplish a few worthy goals. Life is very very good these days. I CAN say, that the horrors of past twi life inspire me to appreciate and treasure the joys and freedom I currently enjoy much more than if I had never suffered.

Sure oldies.... As far as him being kind to you at one time....loved you or was once gentle...scriptures say that even the very evil can do that to those whom they care about....that is not fruit of the spirit... Read galations 5 ....THOSE are fruit. Fruit of the spirit and fruit of the flesh....there are two different categories. there are two specific lists that identify whether you are Of the flesh or of the spirit. Jesus listed the fruit where by we could identify one another. Peace, long suffering, meekness, love, etc. Ephesians talks about works....the ones that look good, but won`t save us. What you listed of vp`s behavior so far is a few good works. We have some good works that you saw....we have lots of bad works that other people saw.... Those don`t condemn him or save him either way...... What DOES identify him as *of the flesh* and consequently according to galatians ... what completely condemns him as a man of the flesh, rather than man of the spirit and having no inheritance in the kingdom of God....was the fruit that HE manifested....not the fruit of the spirit...but the fruit of the flesh...Adultery, drunkeness, lying, lasciviousness....etc Scriptures condemn him friend, and all of the works that you saw will never make it ok or save him...I am sorry.

Nope oldies. No mistake. Every instance that you (and anyone else for that matter) have related here concerning vp`s supposed *good* fruit, his behavior....that I can remember were not examples of fruit at all, but simply works. Ephesians says ....that won`t save us. There is a Big difference between the two friend. You saw some of what you consider good works, Others saw bad works...but works are works and fruit is fruit. The fruit witnessed and documented so far places wierwille squarely in the *flesh* catagory...shrug ...that makes him, his teachings AND his ministry unreliable and untrustworthy....AND the scriptures say he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God... Are you sure you want to trust someone like him to have an accurate understanding of spiritual matters?

:)

Gosh oldies, are you denying what you have shared with us here? I know that folks were nice to you and your family personally. I know that folks taught scripture to you, and your subsequent appreciation....I know that you DIDN`T see what happened to the rest of us...shrug. I have yet however to see any references to incidences of demonstrated fruit in vpw or lcm`s life....shrug That is solely what I based my understanding on. Have you anything in the fruit category that you personally witnessed that you WOULD care to share with us for consideration? If so I would be happy to consider a re evaluation of my understanding :)

Wow, well said potato. I ought to erase everything I wrote and just let your post stand as the gem it is.

Naw not God, oldies.....I was basing my assumptions on what you yourself have told me that you saw....and I have to say, that without exception, everything you have shared with us so far appears to have been flesh and blood works....shrug. So far, I am not impressed. Teaching scripture?? Studying?? Amassing riches and a following?? Come on...isn`t that what false prophets do? :) When you can show me instances of peace, long suffering, meekness, compassion, mercy. etc...the scriptural measuring stick by which we are to identify people....THEN I might consider your point worthy of consideration. You know, the bible talks about it being EASY to be nice to the people you like...no doubt many of the men you mentioned. were real sweeties to their friends and those whom they wished to impress... I have no doubt a couple of them were even earnest in their attempts to walk as Godly men like so many of us, but were decieved as were we all...(I think it was wrong for you to place them in the same catagory as vic n lcm)..but even so....scripture say even the most evil people can accomplish that.... Our leaders lust for flesh, their documented cruelty, their unconscionable actions place them in the flesh catagory, and all of their pretty works are nothing but tinkling cymbles Works are works...whether they be good or bad, they are no indication of a persons spirituality.

In my opinion, the greatest damage of twi contamination is THINKING that we know what the scriptures say concerning any given subject. Sometimes, I truly wonder how many of us, like the folks in the scenario Jesus gave....will arrive...expecting entrance...breathless in anticipation...assuming that we will have access to the kingdome of heaven...assuming because of the way we were taught....that because we spoke in tongues...we are born again...etc How many of us will be told to depart .... I have to wonder if it is about formulas and recitation of verses, and our flesh and blood works....if that passage is true....How many of us will have to leave because we never really knew him. I am serious... examination of fruit...not works is the only way to get an idea of who we are, and where we are spiritually.

Jonny, I can just FEEL the loooove of Jesus simply oozing from your post, as you walk in those footsteps my brother :) Come on....is that really Jesus like, to accuse someone of being bitter for simply holding leaders accountable biblically, spiritually and morally? Oldies...at least what I remember that you have shared here, any way....were works...works of the flesh (be they good or bad) and really, according to scriptures....they really don`t mean squat when it comes to spirituality. If you view the bible as a source of accuracy, fruit and works are very different :) I maintain, that it would be very foolish to trust a man of the flesh to appropriately understand or teach on spiritual matters.

Jonny, PLEASE...you just butchered the entire passage in the scripture.... In the scripture reference being discussed......in the scenario that that Jesus told them to depart....the men were already dead trying to get into heaven. No chance to repent... He didn`t say *I forgive you anyway come on in*...He told them to get the heck OUT!!! They thought that they knew him...THEY arrived assuming they had access...THEY had cast out demons and taught in his name....it didn`t impress HIM.....he told em LEAVE!!!! PLEASE...if you are gonna tell folks to walk in Jesus` footsteps.......don`t chose just the few that suit you personally. If you want to exhort us to walk as Jesus...in all honesty, for goodness sakes please LOOK at who Jesus was and what he told us to do ...rather than use a few passages to try to enforce the behavior we desire or wish to add authority to our argument. Depart from this discussion if you must ... but know that your finger pointed in condemnation accompanied with accusations of bitterness directed at folks because they don`t buy the vp myth any more certainly doesn`t impress me as very *Jesus* like. Agreed Ham. That speaking in tongues is proof ...is yet I believe another twi myth. The bible is VERY clear about what constitutes *proof* Jesus said was that we would recognize one another by our *fruit*. Shoot, it isn`t about how much scripture we spouted or the thousands that sat at our feet as we taught, nor how much we witnessed....or how much money we gave or how impressive our physical stuff was....in short, all signes in twi that we were spiritual).... Our leaders did not manifest the fruit of the spirit that would indicate that they were of Jesus ... the conclusion seems pretty obvious to me. Edited: my apologies for unnecessary ugliness :)

What about when he (Jesus) tells folks to *depart for he knew them not*? Is that forgiving? Is that compassionate?? Is that forgiving those whom trespassed against him??? What about THOSE footsteps of Jesus, my friend??? I suppose THAT particular passage of scripture is unimportant because it doesn`t support your brand of religion.

Um...YES actually it does. I don`t think VP`s message was *truth* at all. The message of a man if the flesh can not be relied upon as spiritually wholesome. That would be very foolish. And according to scripture...theres gonna be folks that claim to know Jesus...Folks who will arrive thinking they have a place in heaven....they will whine that they prophesied in his name and cast devils out....yup yup yup....and THEN Jesus says....that he will tell them to *depart for I knew you not* check it out.. the bible REALLY says he will :) Sure doesn`t sound like he is into forgiving everybody everything...shrug I think that you are willing to ignore an awfull lot of scripture in order to back up your pet theory, friend.

Yes wolf, I was thinking about that. My experience is purely with black bears. The rules wouldn`t apply to a grizzly or brown bear.

Jonny, you make silly assumptions in your speech. You act like people who disagree with your scriptural assumptions as to not knowing Jesus. How on EARTH could I take you seriously? As for not seeing the concern in your post??? Forgive me for missing it. I guess after so many years of having to duck your swings...it comes as a real suprise that you would all of a sudden appear to care for me personally. (((Excathedra))) I am so sorry about your friend. What a tragedy. We were just trying to do our best for God. I am still bewildered at how it could have all gone so terribly wrong.

That is doctrine learned at the feet of a man of the flesh Jonny. Doctrine that allows evil to run unchecked. The scriptures say differently. That a brother must ASK first. But hey, let`s not let scriptural accuracy interfere with your reality.

You are mistaken in your assumption that someone whom holds false prophets and destroyers of God`s people accountible for their actions, as someone who doesn`t *know Jesus* . To assume such is the hight of arrogance. You completely ignored how Jesus treated the pharacees and money changers who cheated and abused God`s people in your impassioned little speech Jonny. I would think that the difference in the scenario you gave, and the scenario that I gave ...lays in the fact that Jesus asked for forgivness for the people....HE asked....he said *for they know not what they do*...the pharacees and money changers who deliberately hurt and knew what they were doing was wrong....they were treated in a whole different way by Jesus...He threw a right little tantrum about THEIR activities. Yeah, Jesus asked for forgivness when the folks didn`t know what they were doing. I personally think vpw KNEW and didn`t care that drugging rape and adultery, the savaging of reputations, the destruction of innocent characters was wrong and not in keeping with the flocks best interests. He can`t repent or ask any more, so it is a moot point. The rest of the leaders whom are propounding his doctrines...they still have that opportunity. It is between them n God.

Rottie, I seriously believe that the policy varies according to which state and who`s in charge of their dnr. Usually when we run across a bear at the lake...we just stand up big and tall and yell go away.... One time....my uncle was walking up from the lake....he spotted a bear up the hill from him. Just as he spotted it, the bear started running for him. Dave, turned and ran as fast as he sould back to the lake...grabbing the boat as he ran into water, draggiong it with him, much to frightened to take the time and jump in....expecting those bears teeth to grab him one time from behind no doubt....well when he got chest deep, he finaly looked back over his shoulder only to discover that the bear had been a half grown cub running for the nearest tree...which incidently happened to be between them....lol the bear was more scared than Dave was. We gave him a lot of grief for many years about his attempt to *walk on water*....lol Nother time when my mom was a little girl....she was sitting in the out house taking care of business. She heard a snuffeling noise .....assuming of course it was her ornery older brothers trying to scare her.... She sang out....I KNOW that`s you Ben and Dave.....you can`t scare me........Leave me alone you guys...she kept up a steady stream of conversation ....when all of a sudden a huge bear sticks her head around the corner in inquery....lol She just looked in and went on about her business.

Well, I grew up around bears in the michigan up. Most bears can be scared off by yelling. In all of the generations of families that grew up in our area...there was never a situation where the bear didn`t back down. Course if you were trout fishing...the smart thing to do was drop your creel full of fish and bait if a bear wanted it. It is the dump bears and those that become acclimated to people that become dangerous. Any time you get close to a mama bear and her cubs, you are in trouble. Most of the time if a bear becomes a problem, they are trapped and relocated by the department of natural resources. It is very few that will attack unprovoked...but occasionally, you have a rogue. I watched a documentary about the treadwell guy....seems to me that he was mentally unstable, drug addicted, and incredibly stupid. He THOUGHT that he knew bear behavior...in his arrogence, he pushed his limits and entered the bears personal space one to many times. Wasn`t the bears fault.

Maybe this thread should have been titled... *How whatthehay WISHES we would deal with his offenses* Sorry friend, we aren`t letting you n your buds off the hook that easily :)

This ISN`T a movie. It was real flesh and blood people who had their hearts stomped on and their lives destroyed. WTH, it takes compassion and understanding to attempt to comprehend the damage wrought. I think that you don`t want to face your own culpability, there for you must place all of this in the relm of story and movies made up for others profit and entertainment.

Great analogy Ham. Rosey as ratchet ...hee hee I think the lobotomized ones are those whom never get to the point where they can question what they were taught....locked forever in the tight little rison manufactred for us by twi doctrine. The rest had someone break through those walls...cause cracks that let the brilliant sunshine from the outside into our dark tiny little prisons...we strove for the light...breaking down the rest of the walls the held us. Great analogy Ham. Rosey as ratchet ...hee hee I think the lobotomized ones are those whom never get to the point where they can question what they were taught....locked forever in the tight little rison manufactred for us by twi doctrine. The rest had someone break through those walls...cause cracks that let the brilliant sunshine from the outside into our dark tiny little prisons...we strove for the light...breaking down the rest of the walls the held us.

Thanks Jeff...we each must walk our own path as guided you know? My path is not yours, nor your mine. For me...I had to go back to the very beginning and decide if I even believed that there WAS a God....because as far as I was concerned....everything I had ever been taught was a lie...every principle that was supposed to work with a mathmatical accuracy and scientific precision ...fell apart..it all turned to dust.... I had to start over again with *Love God and Love your neighbor*....it was all I could handle as being *truth* and build from there.....it was all I could handle because I knew that I could never trust anyone again. Now days, if I don`t see *love God and love your neighbor* in action ...I don`t give a damn what scriptures are coming out of a persons mouth ...it`s all just tinkling cymbles...you know?? :) I think that is why I can generally *hear* what you have to say Jeff, I can see the love you have for your fellow Christian...and that impresses me far more than any biblical scholar and their scriptural quotations EVER will. Cathy

Jeff, I think that if folks like wth can make what happened seem acceptible. If they can make it seem like the people whom were mistreated are the ones in the wrong...like the once wounded are just big weenies that need to suck it up and get over it....it helps wth and those who participated in the destruction still feel ok about themselves....they don`t have to get honest about their responsibility. One isn`t faced with the necessity of soul searching and making the necessary changes to become a genuine christian...they can safely hide behind their pious platitudes. They can safely throw rocks and indulge in hatefull behavior...their meanness all the while masked in scripture... Twi religion makes this ok.

Sounds more to me like an excuse to avoid coming to grips with our responsibility as genuine Christians. I think it is mighty foolish to assume anything that you learned from a man who was of the flesh is valid or *good* spiritually or worth holding fast to. There are plenty of wholesome avenues to help develop ourselves as men and women of the spirit, but if our head is so full of crap we are *holding fast to* learned from one whom was *of the flesh*...it can be very difficult to ever break free from the bondage of wrong teaching.