rascal

(((Potato))) I am sorry that you had a rough day. Excathedra, that makes sense. The wow that witnessed to me claimed that he prayed when he arrived in town for the first person he spoke to to be hungry for the word....Darn it, that just happened to be me :( He recent.y told me that at the time, God told him, that my best friend would have turned me gay if I hadn`t responded. It is really wierd, but my dearest friends in the world through out high school came out of the closet on our graduation day. He didn`t know that. Personally, I have to wonder if gay wouldn`t have been the better of the two choices :)

It`s clearly the only moral and ethical thing to do.

p.s. I really wouldn`t not apologize and ask for forgivness, once I am aware that I have offended. Jonny, please accept my heart felt apologies for having upset you with my lack of regard for the sharing your fond memories. I will do everything within my power to avoid causing you distress by my insensitivity in the future. I look forward to the exchange of ideas with you without rancor in the future :)

Discussion is one thing, finger pointing, chest beating tirades and ranting accusations against any whom don`t share your beliefs is quite another. Out of curiosity,and seriously not because I WANT to be contentious..lol..:) ....but darn it...I just have to ask....just when exactly did you forgive me anyway? Was it before this thread? Is it still all right to bring it up if you had indeed forgiven? If it is ok for you to discuss my shortcomings after granting forgivness without you being considered bitter....why can`t I discuss that pig wierwille and his crimes without being considered *a piece of work* and having indulged in a *bitter pill*?? Was it all right to stalk and bully, deride and insult because a poster didn`t share your point of view? Is that how you treat someone whom you have forgiven? The answeres to these question directly affect how much I believe you really walk your talk fellow. Oh, and JUST because we didn`t get a nice little note when we didn`t respond in the manner which the poster required...shrug, I don`t think that made your input any more valid or correct than everyone elses :) If you have indeed forgiven my lack of appreciation for your stories just today, well then cool beans, and thanks :) I honestly look forward to seeing the kinder gentler side of Jonny Lingo :)

WTH, it sounds to me as if you have come up with some pretty sounding excuses NOT to repent of your sins, to NOT seek forgivness from those whom you have wronged, and to NOT offer restitution when possible. It all sounds good, and reasonable.....but you will never experience the deliverance that you need by puffed up head knowledge to excuse ones self from your biblical, spiritual, and moral responsibility to your brothers and sisters in Christ, friend.

You know Jonny, your post has got me to really thinking. It has been years since I expressed my dismay at your attitude. It really must eat at you like a canker, I mean every chance you get, you bring up how mean old rascal crapped on your fun memories. When, I posted that one time, it was never intended to be an insult, but an attempt to try to get you to understand how hurtful it could possible be to read all of those charming little adventures knowing that while Jonny was having a great time, a sister was being raped, a child was being abused, someone was being ostracized from family friends and God`s ministry and protection for displeasing a mog. The people who`s very worst memories, who`s most horrific nightmares, in short, some of the most painful moments suffered, the deepest shame and humiliation suffered in this life during the same time period, and under the same mogs whom you are sharing these amusing little antidotes about...Darn it, it is really hard to read, thinking about what was happening to one personally in twi whilst you frolicked in the trout stream. You know? That is ok, you didn`t get it. My bad, but...HONESTLY now...don`t you think it is about time (according to your reasoning) that you forgave me? :) Will you forgive me even if I don`t apologize? If I never repent? What IF, I never deign to even ask? Will you personally be willing to forgive if I refuse to ever see or acknowledge that I did anything wrong?? If I continue to be a contentious arse for the next two years??? What if I tell you to quit being a perpetually whining little victim, and to shut the heck up???? Will you, and can you forgive me and never mention it again?? It`s been a couple of years now, are you going to still be mad in 5..in 10? Do you personally consider yourself bitter yet? Honestly now....isn`t that exactly what you are advocating and requiring of others here whom endured a whole lot more than a lack of appreciation for your stories about good times enjoyed in twi?

I like you too Jeff :)

Hey glad that you guys had a good time ....really! Why on earth let the spector of your brothers and sisters being sacrificed on the alter to serve the mog`s special appetites...the innocents whom were required to sate the mogs lusts....diminish ones personal memories? I mean REALLY...who the heck cares about those who were tormented and even died as long as a few of us learned a bit, and aquired some materials for a story or two? Party on dude, For goodness sakes...please don`t let the whiners or complainers besmirch the memories of those fun times. As far as the topic of this thread?? Forgive all you want friend, but don`t pretend for an instant that circular twi reasoning ...ie leaving out half of the scriptures regarding the subject, in anyway makes you an authority on when and why anyone ELSE is required by God to forgive. Untill one analyzes all of the information on forgivness, it truly is nothing more than personal opinion.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to make your behavior ok Dove. To me your accusations in order to allow yourself to dismiss the content of ones posts are like straining at gnats. I personally, will never understand not being deeply offended by what these guys did....even more so...the defending and making excuses for their sadistic cruelty. It`s like something internally is broken, and to me a symptom of the contamination from contact with twi. We were taught bible scriptures and then how to use them deceitfully. We aquired knowledge, and then how to use it as a weapon. We were introduced to God in name, and then placed under men claiming their status as HIS leaders to be enslaved by them. I see the people who never got away from the twi mindset, the ones whom just continued to hang around people who think, speak, act the same way they all did in twi....STILL trying to employ the same methods today....utilize scriptures deceitfully and dishonestly in order to try to bully people into the behavior we desire....namely shut the heck up so nobody knows what perverts we served in a sham of a ministry....oh you need to shut up cause your lying...doesn`t matter how many corroborating stories there are....oh...you just need to stop being a gossiper, or back biter....doesn`t matter that it isn`t gossip OR back biting if it is true.....you are just being overly sensative and need to just stop whining and get over it....oh well I guess it might have happened...but you really deserved it anyway because you should have known better....doesn`t matter if you were young and naieve, trusting a minister to behave with integrity, never dreaming that they were trying to get in your pants, that they would employ any means of manipulation, even down to drugging to achieve their aims...finally to be culminated with....oh you just need to forgive these poor fellows and move on.....don`t be such a meanie pants.....it`s for your own good...(yeah like I believe for one instant anything twi adherents do is for anybody elses good) ALL manipulations I see employed here, ALL complete with scriptural back up...ALL with the aim to shut people up.In my opinion, it is deceitful and a dishonest application of scripture. TWI indoctrination at it`s finest. Honestly, and I say this with all the sincerity in my heart. I believe that it takes getting away from twi doctrine....interacting with genuine christians, men and women who are of the spirit to recognize the depravity of twi. Too bad you aren`t willing to apply the same standard demanding proof, thirst for accuracy and accountability to the leaders on twi who ravaged and destroyed people by the thousands.

Think there have been a thread or two discussing this very idea...lol Couldn`t tell you where to find them, but we had the stars picked out to play the various villains :)

Yeah Bramble, it makes about that much sense to me too. You have people getting far more angry, and offended with the people that TALK about what vpw and his good old boys did than focusing on the men whom actually participated and embraced the evil.... Aw come on Dove, I don`t believe for one miniute that you are really interested in truth or credibility.....It appears to me that you just can`t bear to have people talking about what these guys did....Is it because of what the evidence of their lives point to?? Do the conclusions make you uncomfortable?? Is that what drives your vendetta to shut people up?? Is it because you don`t want to be wrong about what you committed so much time or effort into?? Is it ego??? Only you can answere these questions for yourself. Please, and I really mean this with no malice or bitterness or anger...please just get honest with yourself first friend, cast the beam out of your own eye before you try to remove anybody elses splinter er credibility issues.

It baffles me when anyone is NOT deeply offended and angry at what these perverts and thieves did in God`s name. I imagine that even he is disgusted at what his name and scriptures were used to fascilitate. Teach people scriptures so that we can use them as a snare to the unwary....Use the scriptures as tools to steal, kill, and to destroy... Yeah, sounds like God was behind THAT one all right.

Oh gee Dove, I guess that you nailed me :)

Dontworrybehappy, Thanks for all that you tried to do to make things right. I mean it....even when so many of us couldn`t hear what you had to say. I can not imagine having the courage to stand up against those guys. Our thinking was so warped by the teachings. Do you know that twi was so afraid of you and what you guys had to say, that folks were not only told to stay away from you guys because you were possessed, that we would become possessed by listening....but that we were not to have any contact with anybody who had even heard what you had to say because they were now possessed and we would be in danger also. It is too bad, if I had had the courage to listen, I might have left 5 years sooner. Thank you for trying. Thank you for trying to do what was right, even when we believed that you were working for the devil. Thank you for what you have shared here, it helps to understand what happened and why it all went so wrong, and hopefully how to avoid that trap ever again.

I agree to trust God whatever those hidden things may be. Have a great evening Jeff, I am about to leave as well. Peace :)

Well, it is an either or with me Jeff. God was either behind vp, or vp was a deciever. I had my spiritual crisis, and come out of the other side. I gave God the finger when my life shattered and fell apart and told him that Number one, I didn`t believe he existed, and number two...IF per chance he did....to stay the hell away from me ....that EVERYTHING that I had ever been taught about him was a lie. Kind of funny looking back at it now...long story short... I remember that calm quiet voice...and could almost feel a dig in the ribs....and this gentle laughter saying...well GOOD...now that we have THAT established, are you ready to start all over again at square one .... I got home that evening and had some insane things happen, things that were humorous but in which there could be no doubt that God was there, that the crazy events were orchestrated by him, and tthat we were to begin all over again. We started with deciding if he was there....and then because I was adamant about never trusting anyone ever again to teach me what was truly of God.....I was asked if I could handle *Love God and love my neighbor* as a starting place. Trust me Jeff, I know and acknowledge that God is very very good. I just don`t believe that he had anything to do with twi. VPW DOES however seem to fit the bill of a false prophet....his fruit shows he was of the flesh.....a liar, a pharacee that would use God and the scriptures and the authority as a minister to steal fraom and destroy God`s people. He was a sneak, a thief, and deceiver, and a destroyer of souls. His life and his ministry left a swath of destruction through peoples lives and to me bear ample evidence as to whom he worked for. As far as splinter groups. I just feel strongly that if they have built their foundations on the doctrines learned from a man of the flesh...that they have faulty foundations built on shifting sands....they can patch and repair and whitwash to hide the flaws...but I believe that eventually the foundation(as with any) that when the pressure is applied, when the storms arrive...that they will crumble and fail...and that everything built on top of them will be destroyed. Far better to raise the building to the ground and start fresh on a solid rock, with new materials that are manufactured to code.

Dearest (((((Dot)))) You have the biggest heart I know with the deepest capacity to love and forgive that I have ever seen. I love you girl, I hope that after this so very difficult time, that you find the peace that you so richly deserve.

Jeff, thank you for your compassion.....but I need to be clear with you. When I speak of brothers and sisters in the context of twi, I am speaking of brothers and sisters in Christ, my spiritual family. My friends in twi, the posters here that have shared their stories. I know people that all of the above things mentioned happened...but they were not my flesh and blood physical family...not that it makes the crimes any less heinous....I just don`t want you to think that I am over exaggerating or lying. Another thing, I certainly don`t think you are nuts. I just think that we were ALL decieved by false prophets, by wolves in sheeps clothing....ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour. I think that they HAD to look good, they as wolves had to disguise themselves as one of the sheep in order to get close enough to the flock to attack.....they had to appear spiritual in order to fool us into serving them. Proverbs talks about in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey. I think that rather than bring us closer to God, they lured us away...that they so confused us with all of the knowledge seeking and aquired arrogance and busy work, that in time we couldn`t even HEAR the voice of God any more. I know, I seem bitter, implacable, angry....I AM...I am so offended that these things happened to innocents, that these atrocities were forced upon us in God`s name.... furious that the bible was used as a weapon to enforce evil ... I am so angry that I cannot read the bible or listen to a sermon with out getting ....ed at how those words that were to be so healing ended up enslaving and hurting...grrrrr In the end I have to be really really ....ED at a God who would call people to a ministry of perverts and criminals ...to be used and destroyed ...or look at the evidence and decide if these guys were merely masquerading as ministers...false prophets that would draw people away from God.... It is my belief that God and scriptures were merely a tool that these men used to sate their lusts and fill their bellies. I have no respect for that. Jeff, please don`t be angry with me for my opinions either. I detect in your posts, the compassion of a genuine Christian. When folks are operating the 2 great commandments, I think they can vehemently disagree with each other on issues and still have the deepest respect for one another as Christian brothers and sisters. Yeah they taught us some bible...but they taught us to ignore a whole lot more. How could we ever trust a God that would lead us into a group like twi :(

You know Jeff, I just feel like it is such blasphemy for these guys to claim that God would call my sister to a ministry to be raped by the leaders.... To say that God would call my brother to die from following instructions from these ministers......that God would call people to him and place them under the spiritual guidance of those whom would see their children physically and sexually abused... families destroyed...beyond any ability to fix. Yet, isn`t that exactly what people are saying when they say old God called people to vp`s ministry?? No I didn`t see ALL of these things personally. My experiences, as unpleasant as they were, pale in comparisson to what others here have endured at vp`a hands and under the influence of his ministry. To lay these things heinous cruel actions at God`s feet, to me is deeply offensive.

Woah Ham, THAT is a sobering thought. I wouldn`t WANT a God whom would call one person ta ministry to be blessed by a man and yet another to be raped or die at the hands of this man and his ministry... That is a shameful thing to say about God, one whom has been called the shepherd whom would leave the flock of 99 in search of the one missing and in trouble.

oldies, again you are calling wierwilles *works* ...*fruit* ...and assuming because you personally enjoyed some blessings...that God had a part of it...shrug Not so, because that very same man, the same man was responsible for raping your sisters and destroying your brothers lives. His ministry, his doctrines, his leaders that HE trained are personally responsible for death and carnage. If God was a part of it that means he was a part of the destruction of one of his precious lambs. If God led you, then he led those of us who were used and when our usefulness exhausted, tossed out like so much garbage, crumpled and broken. Scripturally that just doesn`t add up. It is an insult to God to claim that he had any part of a person or ministry that would do that to a single one of his precious lambs.

and because he CLAIMED that God spoke to him, we are to over look every bit of evidence to the contrary, to ignore every warning given scripturally, and discard every stick given to measure a persons character, morality and spiritual nature given in the bible.

Shell, I hope that it was a good one. You sure deserve it.

Wow highway, what a story. How sneaky of THEM to be online to catch YOU on line...lol How much time did they spend there to gather evidence....man what weeners....lol I wish that I had been important enough to m&a ...they just moved the fellowship and wouldn`t tell me where.....hee hee