rascal

Better by far than being self rightious finger pointing accusers...shrug...Been there and done that in twi, thankful for the deliverance :)

Perhaps something about good fruit from a bad tree? The doctrine of wierwille allowed evil to run rampant and unchecked. People were hurt, people died from it`s implementation. Your darned right we have reason to believe that it is harmful, not matter WHO is teaching it or WHAT their heart is like.

Are there?? *I* certainly didn`t say that.

What makes me think that they have to repent...hmmm could it be SCRIPTURES say that it is required??? Now granted, if you are not a Christian, that will not be much of a recommendation :) I absolutely believe with every fiber of my being that the perpetrators don`t value a relationship enough to apologize...(I have to say that I have never read more honest words spoken from you WTH) They hold absolutely NO regard for their brothers and sisters in Christ. (though I have my doubts if the perpetrators ARE actually brothers) No esteem what so ever. ....else they NEVER could have done what they did in the FIRST place to those entrusted to their care. .. nor would any person of character, integrity, and decency. Those whom were held in so little regard that twi leaders used and destroyed without conscience....Those whom were shattered and tossed aside when their usefulness exhausted like so much garbage, are the very same people that God tells us the shepherd would leave the 99 in search for the one precious lost. I KNOW that the perpetrators don`t value the people who were used and destroyed enough to repent and apologize. THAT much is crystal clear. I know that knowledge aquired in twi puffs one up,. If however, ones arrogance allows them to sin without conscience.... Fine, but why try to justify ones self and actions to anybody else? Most of us can see past the lies and bull crap and simply don`t buy it any more. Most of us have had contact with genuine Christians since leaving the posers and pretenders in twi. Most of us having met spirit filled Christians whom manifest the fruit of the spirit are now able to fully comprehend the travesty of twi and understand the putrid spiritual nature of these men of the flesh...AND have lost all respect and regard.

Not to MENTION the fact if we gave our names they would and not let us in. You think for one instant they`d let rascal or any grease spotter in?? Yeah...right...you KNOW they`d wet themselves. Heck, my husband saw a bumper sticker a few years ago and left a note on a twi persons car with his email addy. The believer responded with an email, but when Mark wrote back and gave his name ..... (and he doesn`t even participate here)....the guy severed all contact. More than conqueres my arse, they quiver in fear at contact from the supposed spiritually unclean.

Ok...you haven`t gone back in years...yet you presume to recommend that people go BACK to a spiritually, morally bankrupt group of people and have a freakin twinky???You personally bet that the boogie man won`t get them??? How dare you presume to offer such potentially harmfull advice about a group that has the track record of twi without any personal knowledge of the groups current spiritual healthiness? The people have never repented, they have never apologized, they still teach the doctrine manufactered by a mad man, a doctrine that allowed evil to run unchecked...and you recomend we go back for a twinky??? That is rediculous and irresponsible.

Thanks Jeff, you make some very good points :) Would you believe that I have seen far stupider statements attributed to that same man by posters here?? That in addition to being incredibly stupid, according to accounts, that fellow was unconscionably cruel, graphically nasty to the point of making one want to throw up with his supposed marriage counceling. He was also the person that was reputed on more than one web site to have given girls a drink on the bus .. for them only to later awake while being sexually assaulted by wierwill@??... talk about a conscience seared with a hot iron..w!erwille`s right hand man...the repository for his supposed final instructions....ugh and HE still runs a group proclaiming to teach the *truth* a group that is still actively hurting people if the accounts here are to be believed. What a scum bucket... Are we going to trust these guys?? Are we going to cut them any slack?? EVER??? Are we going to believe for one instant that men that could do this....had any honest desire to help people??? Can we by any WILDEST stretch of the imagination believe that they have changed without a public apology and restitution???? If it was anybody else other than the founders of an organization that we personally invested our hearts and souls into, we would be decrying their abuse and cruelty with outrage. I think we are reluctant to come to grips with the truth of what these men did because we personally don`t want to admit being duped by con men :( We owe it to the unsuspecting, to share what we whom have had personal experience with these fiends.

Have YOU gone back to a twi fellowship lately oldies?? (that would explain a lot) Have YOU had access to current twi leaders and hq to know what goes on with the *so spiritual they can handle anything bunch*? Have you really got any idea what they teach?? What their expectations are of the spiritually committed?? I seriously doubt it..... If they have changed...in your educated opinion....how long ago??...I am friends with at least ONE person whom has seen the uglier side of twi in the last 5 years.

HERES an idea!!! How bout you folks whom don`t want people annalyzing your sins as twi participants REPENT! How about you apologize!!! How about you seek to make amends with folks where possible!!! THEN golly, you won`t have to be mad at people for being completely disgusted by what you did to them. Wowzer ...and the that would eliminate the necessity of constantly making excuses for your behavior and that of your leaders!! The healing on both sides could begin!! What a novel concept! How brilliant!! Wait ... it`s in the scriptures!! That makes it even more recomended :)

Snort...TWI leaders were the scum of the earth, they destroyed lives, they were the PERFECT example of everything that a false prophet/wolf in sheeps clothing ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour....and so let`s ignore ALL of that and INSTEAD.... attack some nebulous un named church and make up stories about political liberals.....and pretend that they want a moral Jesus stripped if grace. That is so nuts...so typically twi.

Sounds like his outrage towards the pharacees and money changers was pretty unrelenting to me :) I am not anonymous :) God knows who we are here AND he knows what these people did to us, even in spite of your unrelenting attempts to whitwash and mitigate the crimes committed by men claiming to represent him.

Well it IS relative and important because these evil men are survived by their doctrine that still hurts people to this day. Oldies, you said....Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow. How can we morally compete??? Are you freaking kidding me???? That simply is what you do when you are *of the spirit* Drugging, rape, alcoholism, abuse, theft, lies, simply are not attractive and not something that men and women of the spirit do or manifest...shrug I have to say that I know a lot of people who aren`t christian that have no problem behaving in a moral, ethical fashion. Why on earth cut this monster who destroyed so much in God`s name any slack? He is even MORE culpable, and to be despised.

I wonder if these fellows would be singing the same song if it had been THEM who were invited to the motor coach, if it were THEM who was given an innocent looking drink, if it was THEM who was raped. I wonder if it was THEM who were told by the old perv that God wanted him to heal them sexually. I wonder if it was these folks that suffered the ultimate betrayal....I mean just where can you GO if it appears that God and your minister are the ones whom are destroying you AFTER you have been talked into alienating all family and friends and encouraged to burn all of your bridges???? It is a mighty alone feeling :( Somehow, I just don`t feel like they would be as eager to silence the outrage.

Well, that`s all well and good as long as we allow ourselves to ignore those pesky parts of the bible, the verses that talk about how Jesus treated the pharacees and people who used or mistreated God`s people, the false prophets and the wolves in sheeps clothing. Oh and musn`t forget the folks that Jesus tells in the end to *depart from him, for he knew them not! But that wouldn`t really be very accurate or honest. Guess I will continue to express my moral outrage as vigorously as Jesus did in those situations, though I have yet to chase anybody with whips or flip any tables :)

Jeff :) I think that you nailed it....Desensitization! I know that there is nothing wrong with being morally outraged and shouting about these crimes from the roof tops. Believe it or not, I even understand some peoples need to shut us up. I think that it is tied up in self worth, in perception, ones view of ones own worth. Gosh, we were God`s spiritual elite, his crack troops, setting the world on fire with the word...We had a noble cause, a glorious mission. People in leadership position had power and prestige. People listened and obeyed, had respect, even reverence for these leaders of God`s people. We invested decades of our lives in service, we followed orders that were detrimental to our lives and families, we brokenly subjected ourselves to evil assault believing that God required this of us and that the nobility of our motives in following evil orders would cause it to be alright. Who wants to believe that we were deceived? That these men used us, used our resources, used our homes, our time to sate their lusts and fill their bellies? Who wants to go from God`s spiritual elite, whom suffered and sacrificed to see God`s word over the world...to the spiritually deceived, those whom were duped into serving evil men, whilst they destroyed our brethren??? I think that one has to make us liars, make the people speaking up as the evil ones, because to consider the alternative is unbearable. So we are either psychotic liars, or perpetually whining victims, or foolish, or should have known better, or maybe what happened just wasn`t as bad as we remember.... If one can desensitize themselves to the horrors that were endured at these men`s hands, convince themselves that it really was alright, then one doesn`t have to face the unpleasant alternative. The meeting that I spoke of, I was in a small town in Kansas. The leaders whom had stood up and tried to make a difference were coming to our state. We were invited to hear what these people had to say. Our LC called us and told us that these men were possessed and working for Satan. We were told that if we went, if we listened, that we too would probably become possessed. When our best friends went anyway, our LC then told us to have no contact with our friends or anybody else whom attended the meeting because they were probably possessed. I am ashamed to say that good little wafers that we were back then, we obeyed and severed contact. We spoke occasionally in the ensuing years but always kept these people at arms length because of their spiritually suspiscious activities.

We used to have a bumper sticker hanging in our cabin. My mind is made up...DON`T confuse me with the facts :)

Watered garden, I hope that you are never afraid to post what you really think. Your thoughts are as important and valid as anyone elses here. :)

Dooj, I agree. Sometimes it takes getting very angry to be motivated to make a change.

I guess it is all in ones perspective George. If you learned some scripture but were later enslaved by that very scripture to the group that taught it...If you learned to revere that scripture and then it was used as a weapon to force you to do unconscionable things....is it really a good thing? If the man that taught you the scripture and won your trust as a minister for God then used those same scriptures to fascillitate seduction drugging and rape....would it still be something that God called you to? Would those scriptures still hold such value? I`d like to think that God could do a whole lot better than that. I think pfal was kind of like a *gateway* drug. It seemed rather innocuous and harmless at first....but in reqality, laid the foundation for entrapment .... those very scriptures that we thought were so cool were later used to harm.

Well said Wash n Wear!

I won`t say that our motives weren`t purer, our hearts not in the right place George..... I believe that it was those very motives though, that are what the drug lords exploited in order to bring in income, power and prestige to themselves. We were taught some scriptures that appeared to help for a time...but in reality, those scriptures ended up simply being the bait that covered the hook that ensnared us. In the end, contact with twi, turned out to be much more destructive than if we had just been left alone. I think that if these unscrupulous people not lured, decieved and exploited us, God would have found a way to reach us eventually anyway. He did the rest of my family members and friends who DIDN`T go the rout of twi.

Jeff, people did. People like Don`tworry be happy stood up and told the leaders they were wrong.... There were women that stood up and said *NO* and tried to confront lcm and vpw ..there were people who refused to follow instructions that would hurt people. The thing was...when they did these things...leadership declared them *posessed* and threw them out. I was told that is I went to a meeting where Ralph D, John Lynn and a few others were talking about the problems of the ministry that I would be posessed. I was told that if I went to a meeting or even talked to someone whom had been to the meeting ...that I would become possessed. I was told to never speak to these people even the ones who simply went to the meeting or heard the tape ...again. Valiant people tried to be heard, but we were so conditioned (brainwashed) that we couldn`t hear what these brave souls had to say. That is why we never heard the voices of outrage when we were IN twi.

I am thinking of the drug pushers.....Usually they woul start these kids out with freebies and stories of how much fun you could have when you were high. How it was so cool to be a part of this lawless crowd. I hate to think of myself as exploitive as those pushers...but do you remember as wows how we were taught to find a weakness in a persons life and show how the word ...aka pfal could help fix it??? We were always on the prowl for new blood, fresh meat. Our spirituality was measured by how many people we brought into twi. Were we really any better than the pusher who gave the drugs away to young people in the name of a good time....so that later they would have an income from the addict?? People turned to us because we told them that we had the answeres. Rather than helping, twi just exploited, manipulated for personal gain, and discarded us like so much trash when our usefullness was exhausted.

I watch this show called *intervention*. Families plan an intervention with a loved one whom is addicted and failing. The addicted person thinks that they are doing a documentary on addiction and cooperate. They go into their back grounds. Most of the time there are factors like family break up, losing a parent, some kind of trauma like rape. These people turn to the drugs and alcohol and eating disorders to deal with these issues. No not all, but a significant number. Their stories sound so much like the lives of myself and friends. I think that we turned to twi. It was our addiction of choice to deal with our pain. In twi we felt powerful, we felt loved, we felt like we were right and that we were on a glorious mission. The same thing that the drugs do for these addicts. By the time we/they found out that our choices were dangerous and destructive...it was too late, we were hooked. The similarities are amazing.

I believe so OCW. You would be astonished at how many people I knew (and have since met here) from twi that suffered some pretty horrendous traumas. Many had been raped as young girls and teens. Most of my friends came from broken families. Many of us in the 70s had to raise ourselves because our parents were doing their own thing. It seems by in large, most of the folks I knew were like me, teenagers, starved for love, desperately seeking a meaningful direction in life. TWI came along and said you aren`t a schmuck, you are God`s best, you can have power, you can participate in the epic battle of good verses evil. We LOVE you :( It was an irrisistable lure to lonely kids whom had no one who cared enough to guide them.