rascal

You know that if you read galatians 5 mike, it says it al right there....honest. It tells exactly what the fruit are in a man of the flesh..and exactly what the fruit of a man of the spirit are. That fruit is manifest because of what we are on the inside. I know that you venerate wierwille....but that passage tells precisely who and what a drunken fornicating, adulterer is...with no wiggle room. It also says he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God (what ever THAT means) Fruit of the spirit isn`t what you`d think either from what we were taught...it isn`t speaking in tongues or being researchers, or witnessing, or tithing, or how many we bring to fellowship, in short, all of the things that twi measured spirituality by. Those things are works, and never even made the list. And no, I don`t keep files on anybody here, thats pretty stupid....What folks do is their business. I do speak of what I have seen, and what I have heard concerning the evil practiced in twi by these people...and how this has impacted my life.

Well WTH, you don`t have to take *my* word for it... the bible gave one sure fire way to tell :) Fruit!!! No kidding! Not speaking in tongues, not research ability, not teaching, not witnessing, tithing...all those things so venerated in twi...but fruit of the spirit. Joy,peace, meekness, longsuffering, love :) Jesus said we would know and identify one another by the fruit we manifest. According to scriptures...twi leaders certainly couldn`t pass examination. The fruit of our leaders lives define them as *of the flesh* and as galatians says *without inheritance in the kingdom of God* Bramble, I think that right there is the consequences of chosing wrongly. Had we known to look for that *fruit* and understood it`s significance, we might have known much earlier how far out of whack twi leaders were. I personally don`t think that these men ever even WERE christian, according to the biblical definition. I don`t know that people who follow their teachings are today. Whether Christianity is the one real religion or whatever, I think it unfair to judge the earnest, genuine christians, whom actually walk the talk, by these pretenders whom simply wore/wear the label but ignored every basic tenant for the practice of this faith. There is a reason that wierwille steered us away from those verses and even today people trying to dismiss their sinificance and importance. They don`t like what the bible says about the actions of their leaders, so if they can just shut us up, with demands of forgivnes, to be followed by the required silence, of having forgiven,one can safely return to the illusion of spirituality and Godliness of our twi induced perceptions.

Good point Bramble. I guess I don`t need to take things so darned seriously....lol Y`all have a great night :)

No not wimpiness Dooj....and even if I don`t get it...shoot, that in no way means that I think that your point lacks value or merit. It just means that I don`t understand...yet :) Like I said...I have no problem with people expressing their view. I DO have a problem when they point their finger and say that if you don`t subscribe to it, you are wrong or evil. I DO have a problem when they apply a few scriptures, while ignoring others to add legitimacy... God`s stamp of approval per say to their pov. We saw enough deceitful use of scriptures in twi to know better.

You might check out the *child abuse in twi* thread. It was started by a kid who grew up in twi. There were a lot of contribution from now adult kids, and their parents.

George, I don`t think the problem here is Jonny`s beliefs. The problem is when folks insist that anybody who DOESN`T subscribe to their beliefs is evil or wrong. There has been quite a lot of scripture posted supporting both sides of the issue. People are free to chose one way or the other.

I haven`t *jumped* anybody Jonny, that is silly. I have simply discussed an opposing point of view. (Please prepare for sarcasm and nastiness NOW :) ) I understand, I get it now .... that to oppose Jonny Lingos beliefs, equals being *jumped on* . Please forgive me. Goodness, how strong and noble to have the courage to stand up and fight the battle against the oh so evil rascal and greasespotters who dare to express something not sanctified by twi...I stand in awe of you, and bow down to your superiority oh great one. I realize now how little pats on the back in private messages from anonymous posters lacking the courage and moral conviction to speak for themselves are sometimes all that is needed to make one feel sanctimonious and right. Why be bothered to honestly discuss and consider an opposing view point? We all know from the example set by our leaders in twi that as long as folks stroke the ego sufficiently, as long as we have people to agree with every pontification, that is always a sure sign proving ones worthiness, Godlines, and rightiousness :) (end of sarcasm :) ) Seriously sometimes it is really really tough to re examine what we believe, and why we believe it. It takes real courage. It is much easier to go with the flow and tell people what they want to hear.

No, my post was completely in response to you, friend. Wouldn`t it be wirwille, , martindale, and Geere, whom missed your point that *Christians should not have a personal will when it comes to living scripturally, scripture should not back up anything, it should be their standard of truth* ?? I agree, with your point in that premiss. So when you put your finger in someones face declaring that God requires them to forgive because of the conclusions that you personally have drawn from the application of some of the scriptures that you like and ignoring some of scriptures that don`t support you..and then proclaiming THAT to be truth....In my opinion, you have then then crossed the line into personal manipulation with scriptural back up to lend legitimacy to enforce the actions that you personally desire.....ie forgive these guys so that you will shut up about what they did...and allow us to remain unchallenged in our beliefs and comfortable in our perceptions.

Dooj, I just don`t know what would make it any easier. I don`t think that coddling one another because of where we are in our personal growth. Or not challenging each other to think above and beyond our own little box of accepted thinking will do anyone any favors. If we go through life believing we are totally right, in posession of all truth... ones arrogance tends to prevent them from ever acknowledging being wrong or facing the need for re evaluation and change. Gosh didn`t we see enough of that in twi?? Are folks here really so fragile, that we cannot examine ourselves? No, I know it really isn`t always comfortable to examine ones self, ones motives, ones culpability, ones truths....yet how else will we ever grow and become better as people?

Oh come ON Dove. You know that Wierwille, martindale, Geere, n so forth, all believed what they were doing as Christians was all right based on *personal beliefs that the scriptures confirmed they should be thinking and living* sad.gif In THEIR book it was Godly...n ...by golly acceptable as *truth* ... the path however, of shattered lives and destruction they left in their wake...gives evidence to the contrary. Those guys committed atrociously evil acts...all justified, and backed up by scripture. Problem was, they ignored a WHOLE lot of other scriptures and instructions, anything that would contradict what they personally wanted to believe...shrug. Either we believe that the scriptures are flawed, or that they can indeed be missaplied...ie application of *mental gymnastics* in order to support ones personal pet theory.... Sorry friend, but scriptural quotation to confirm the imposition of ones personal will upon another was not acceptable then, nor is it now. In this particular instance, on this thread, forgive, forget, never speak of what happened in twi if that suits you personally. Please though, when you insist that God requires the rest of us to do what you want...backed by scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to your point...shrug then you are crossing over the line into manipulation, in my opinion.

sorry

I agree, that WAS sad Highway. We should have an early and late example of artists in twi. Kind of like the before and after pics on the diet commercials :)

Well said Ham! It is very hard to discuss things sometimes without someone feeling like it is a personal assault. The person that can say the nastiest things, the loudest is the self proclaimed winner. It is really hard perhaps to recognize that it is the belief or idea that is being challenged, and not the poster personally. Brideofjc, no kidding! Isn`t it amazing number one, that we allowed it, and number two, that we did indeed do it to ourselves.

You know Dooj, As long as folks insist on proclaiming their personal beliefs and desires as God`s will, and insist that others comply, complete with scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument...shrug then I guess that there is going to be a problem. Most of us have moved on beyond being manipulated and bullied into obedience and silence :(

Yeah Ham, n what about that sweet girl that was thrown out of the corps...thrown out of the limb home afterwards....before her bro could arrive...after being severely injured WHILE participating in lead. She was damaged goods, not worthy to be in the corps. Not so significant for her either perhaps to lose friends, your calling, your spiritual standing. She lost her life too. Down playing the evil does not make it any less horrible to those whom endured the cruelty. Attempting to minimalise the resultant damage from these predators in no way diminishes the impact that these mens actions wrought. It would be really cool to reach down in your heart, try for some compassion for those whom were despitefully used, those sheep whom the ravening wolves slaughtered. It would be nice if you held the monsters accountable spiritually, morally and ethically for what they have done.... Go ahead, piously spout off your personal beliefs. Continue to beat your chest in self rightious indignation. Understand though..... that you learned this stuff at the feet of men of the flesh. Your teachers were not of the spirit, you information is not complete, not trustworthy. Failure to take into account all of the information in the scriptures, only show casing the ones that appear to support what you want to say is not beneficial to your argument nor those whom you wish to instruct. The conclusions, in spite of your passion are incorrect. WTH, what makes you believe that Amish are not Christian?

Oh my GOSH Sky rider...you just NAILED it!!! Geemany...Christ was NEVER the head in twi...twi never had a freaking chance no matter HOW noble our intentions were, no matter how selflessly we gave of ourselves, our resources, our tiome, operated the biblical *principles* no matter how committed we were as dulous...sigh... no matter how much weprayed, tithed, witnessed and studied. It was all doomed to fail. In all honesty, I`d have to say scripture/knowledge aka the word was the head and what was venerated in twi.

I SUPPOSE that residual hurt is why it is such a heinous thing to betray your congregation. I suppose that also is why the scriptures talk about how difficult it is to win back an offended brother. In a physical scenario, it is the equivalent of inviting a struggling brother over, offering a shoulder in support and when he gets close enough....pulling out a knife and plunging it deep in his back when he wasn`t looking. The back stabbing betrayer, then starts screaming at the poor fellow to stop bleeding all over his Harly, or his 5000 dollar armani suits and 300 dollar bruno mali shoes, as he proceeds to steal every thing of value that the stabbed owns, kicks him a time or two and leads him wounded and bleeding, unconscious in the dirt. By some miracle, with help, the betrayed survives the stabbing, survives the beating and blood loss, he valiantly struggles back to health. It takes a long time for the wounds to heal .The scars of the horrific assault will always be ugly and visible, always giving mute testimony to the unprovoked attack by someone who they once trusted. They then see the same criminal attempting to lure the unsuspecting to him. They try to warn potential victims that the person whom is beckoning to in such a friendly manner ...the one promising help and deliverance, is REALLY trying to lure them in to stab and rob them also. Call it whining, perpetual, victim hood, if you wish. Call the people psychotic liars whom dare to speak of the danger, if you need to. Call folks unforgiving, backstabbing gossipers for not remaining silent. The thing is, those whom witnessed the crime, those whom have seen the damage wrought, KNOW how important it is to keep shouting from the roof tops about the dangers of these unrepentant wolves.

Well what one person sees as whining and belly aching, is seen by another as rightious indignation. We learn by comparing notes, that....Hey, I wasn`t the only one, my believing wasn`t at fault, my walk wasn`t at fault, I didn`t leave trap doors open....These guys were just plain NUTS!! Their standards rediculous, Their requirements impossible. The actions that they forced us to do were immoral and un Godly. When we find out that wierwille and his buddies were evil immoral men of the flesh with no morals or character, or even basice decency.......it finally dawns on us...that it sure wasn`t God that let us down, but evil men and their false doctrines. It makes it easier to forgive ourselves and easier to not be mad at God. Why would you want to stand in the way of someones healing and deliverance?

Thank you for the clarification George St George, you said it so much better and more succinctly than I did.

FIRST of all....I certainly am NOT responsible for Jonny Lingos *impressions* nor what he adds to my posts, WTH. It wouldn`t be the first tine that he has jumped on people on what he THOUGHT was meant, and been dead wrong. It is absolutely not fair to castigate me for his addaptation of what he thinks that I said, along with his additions.... Secondly, I have NO idea what point you are trying to make about what I *conveniently left out* I actually said EXACTLY what I wished to say in my post...anything that YOU add, or claim that I left out...changes the entire post, and the thoughts are no longer mine. Please, just read my thoughts as they stand without adding or subtracting. There is plenty that we can discuss, plenty you can hassle me about without you two making things up. Frankly, I thought my idea was brilliant. I mean shoot, what WOULD we have to talk about if the twi participants whom caused harm repented and apologized and sought to make amends?? The grace of God? The healing? The forgiving?? I personally think that twi teaching caused many of us to be way too arrogant to experience the Godly sorrow to recognize the evil we committed, to repent, to humbly ask forgivnes, to do everything within our power to make amends to those whom we wronged...Much easier isn`t it, to get indignant, blame the victim, demand unconditional forgivness and require silence so others don`t know what scum buckets we were.

Wow, THAT was quite a stretch WTH :) Lets get this straight please/ Jonny Lingo ..... said that there were drugging rapist HERE at greasepot that needed to apologize, and be arrested... It really is unfair to castigate me for what HE said. What *I* suggested was those Those whom participated in twi (past or present) whom harmed people in twi whether present at gs or not.... simply repent, apologize, and make amends to those whom they have wronged.... I didn`t say that there was anyone here at GS whom fit THAT bill.... Jonny Lingo did..nor in THAT post did I refer to drugging rapists...please take that up with him.... Personally, I didn`t think it was such a big deal since these are our biblical instructions, AND if one is a christian WITH a respect for the scriptures...then I would assume that one would be willing to comply. Then those whom were wronged would have the opportunity to forgive and the healing on both sides would begin. A win win situation in MY mind. Twi arrogance though tells us that we don`t need to follow these instructions given....Heck we`ll just shortcut the whole process by demanding forgiveness, and insisting the perpetually whining victims shut up.

I remember the rock where that *good food* was contaminated by some kind of bacteria (roa 81 I believe) and many of us got SERIOUSLY ill for the week....shiver While many enjoyed the *good fellowship* and *good word* there were many others in their tents...vomiting their brains out and unable to make it to the porta potty in time with their diahrea. Yet another example of people at the same event (ministry) having vastly different experiences. A parallel could be drawn between pfal and the wholesome apetitizing looking food concealing harmfull bacteria that sickened and weakened many unsuspecting that year.

That was a complete mis characterization of my post...again

(((Bramble))) That is an amazing story. I am so sorry for what these people put you and your family through in the name of God :( No damned wonder you are rock solid strong. You HAD to be to survive that. Your statement....*We were weak, weary, scared, heartbrocken, stressed, confused, not knowing if our marriage would survive* is as moving an account as I have read about leaving. We were refugees, fleeing. Not knowing if we would live, now that we were no longer under God`s protection...waiting for the other shoe to drop, knowing that satan had access to our lives, knowing that God couldn`t bless us because we weren`t tithing to twi, How would we serve God, How could he love us...Where could we go for fellowship???? Did we make the right choice? Had we been tricked by Satan?? Were we now evil and spiritually suspiscious??? Were we a danger to our bretheren whom we loved so much??? I remember being SO lonely. How dare these people do this to you/us...people who simply were doing their very best to serve God ...grrrr,,,it is so wrong on so many many levels :(

I guess that unless he completely renounced his grandfathers religion, I would have serious doubts as to whether pr not it could be a christian ministry ...no matter what his heart and intentions are. Prolonged contact with that doctrine appears to warp a person, no matter how good their intentions are. Gosh honestly consider what so many of us turned into in twi. In my opinion, one needs to start over fresh from a new perspective.