rascal

Hey there! Questioning is the very beginning, the start....examining...rethinking...it takes time...lots of it. No one path works for all. Trust God to tailor an individual path of growth and healing for you. REading is great hobbies even better to get you out amongst new people and mainstream ideas. Many of my activities have been centered around raising the kids so wouldn`t be effective for another...what do you like? Get a pet, join the theatre, take classes at a local college, study martial arts, volunteer, ride horses, join a ball team...it is so fun to explore your interests develop your own unique gifts and attributes instead of being cookie cutter believers...and then watch God unfold himself to you through those things which ignite your passions and ideas. What works for me doesn`t work for spouse, he likes to read/study periodicals, teachings from different offshoots...(shiver ;)) I don`t think that there is a wrong way. You will meet new people, make friends, lose friends, become a vital part of your community...these are great times friend,

Yeah, Dennis Mghee or something. I have two copies amongst my old way stuff. If it is important to you I can get the specifics.

Tom, I think that we were taught to disdain and dismiss those churches. I have come to the conclusion that if God could reach AND teach me in that evil snake infested twi ...as bad or in imo way worse than anything found in the supp-osed wicked witchcraft spirits governing a given pentecostal church (we have a dear friend that is a pentecostal minister btw)...shoot odds are he can work within the parameters boundaries and limitations of the doctrines of these churches to reach people no matter how distastfull we might personally find their practices. My point being, that before you (we) sneer a church for their practices and understanding, you (one) might consider that is how God reaches, establishes and begins to lead an individual...what works and resounds with you might not necessarily work or resound with me or the people who enjoy fellowship within different understandings and parameters....and that others just might have long suits and understanding above and beyond our understanding in other equally important areas....shrug. Having great volumes of doctrinal knowledge did very little to stem the flow of evil and hurt practiced in twi...so I have my doubts as to how important the search for doctrinal accuracy is compared to love God and love your neighbor. edited to clarify who I meant as *you* it wasn`t directed at any one person :)

sorry

oops double post

Oh, and what you do for people Geisha?? You have my respect, people will see God`s hand in what you do far more than any scriptural sermon.

Hermit?? No Tom, you are not reading or understanding my points at all. My agreement and understanding of Geisha was not an attack of you or a negation of anything that you were posting. (Heck I didn`t even read it all..lol) I spoke of myself post twi, and the people that I have interacted with. They were simply my observations...ie that which we were taught to disdain and despise in the churches may indeed be the missing ingredients to that which can be instrumental in helping to heal and move on. Trying to follow the same twi formulas and doctrines with people that only agree with our doctrinal perspectives, while comfortable and familiar, can I think limit ones perspective. To me it seems to be a common difficulty after twi people experience....that because of a learned disdain of churches and the people that attend ... folks end up missing out on a great deal ....shrug Geisha your analogy of the vine is a very apt one, what fires my husbands imagination and sound bells and whistles for him...bores me to tears... he has disdain for what energises and strengthens...me...what we find amazing is that we end up on the same page most of the time even though our beliefs have gone in such different directions...it took a long long time to learn that we didn`t have to, nor was it even healthy to walk the same path spiritually so to speak...lol it`s like you said...we are both still connected to the vine and the proof is in our continued health and growing...I get it :) I just hate to see anyone dismiss the value and validity of what is out here simply because of a learned dislike...shrug.

I understand what you are saying geisha, We have attended a marvelous little church as the kids have grown up. The people at first glance were certainly not whom I would typically consider hanging out with....and no doubt vice versa...lol but this minister has the tremendous ability to see the christ in an individual ... finding and valuing long suits and ones unique insights and perspectives. I have learned so much above and beyond doctrinal issues from so many many people in this church and surrounding community, but it took me putting aside my own personal aquired arrogance and bias as to what and who were important. Our beloved minister and now dear friend will retire this month...who knows if the lessons she has imparted will survive in this particular group...if we can continue to see one another as individual works in progress, one together in Christ...strengthening and caring for one another...I don`t know. I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding.... I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with... Makes sense, one doesn`t have to challenge ones self if the only people they allow into their sphere of influence are those who believe exactly as or are willing to learn to believe exactly as we do..no? edited to add... Geisha, I was typing this before you posted, your post said it all better and more succinctly, but I will leave my thoughts out here any way

Hey ((Zix)) glad to see you, but doggone it, I hate that you are having such a tough time.

Thanks for the clarification soul searcher. I understand what you are saying. I think that it would be too easy to pass off turning to drugs and alcohol as simply not really being born again...or a lack of accurate knowledge...etc.....but I know so many people that turn to God with all of their heart and strength, yet it doesn`t afford them peace or freedom from that which torments them. Having a relationship with God seems to simply make their sufferings a little more bearable. Amen and seconded!

What is your thinking soul searcher? I was *born again* or *turned my life over to God* or *invited Jesus into my heart* as a child as well. How did that stop us from having sucky lives and being vulnerable to spiritual charlatans? I sometimes wonder though if that isn`t one of the dividing lines or difference between people in twi...on how doctrine was peceived, who became abusers.who became victims...who later escaped and those who are stuck as lifers believing that there is no better way out there.

Naw, I`d say it was more like vulnerability that made us easily exploitable.

I was a lonely kid from a broken home. The promise of being part of a family that never left you...to be needed, an important part of something that was bringing good into the world, a lure that was irresistable to a teen with no guidance or direction in life. To be with people who made you feel like you were a needed important part of a spiritual battle where I could strike a blow for God against darkness and evil... I wanted what the wows that witnessed to me had... peace, a fearlessness, indomitable enthusiasm...the feeling that nothing was impossible. I was targeted at 17 yrs old by wows....you know how it was.....find a need and promise any answeres were available if one only took the class...a wow died during the week of the class, the night of my high school graduation.....first experience with death...blamed on the the adversary trying to stop the move of the word....yadda yadda....trying to scare me away....yadda yadda....so what was I gonna do?? be more committed of course...go wow to replace the one he killed of course...grow spiritually as fast as I could in order to be a vital component in the spiritual battle...get my licks in for God don`t cha know? It all seemed so noble and important at the time....sigh

I admire your resolve in not allowing those people control despite the pressure.

JJ, I was pressured, but it was kind of a reverse psychology type of thing. I wasn`t able to understand the greater spiritual truths because I wasn`t corpes. LCM stated publicly that if you weren`t corpes than you weren`t allowed in his presence...yadda yadda...if you weren`t corpes, you were a bump on a log spiritualy and a waste of space at twig...if you believed the scriptures and loved God...there is no place else to be...its the only place to learn to serve... My dialogues would go like this... wc...you need to go corpes.. me...but don`t you have to have natural leadership ability?? wc...yeah but if you would just make the commitment God would have to create that within you wouldn`t he??? me...what about all of those classes that are required that have never been available in our state... wc...don`t you trust that God would provide that?? me...what about all of that money for tuition... wc...you just need to make the commitment...God will take care of the rest...wheres your believing man? Strangely enough, at the end of that first app year, the same classes that had never been offered before were still unavailable...I had even LESS money than anticipated because leadership had insisted that I needed the spirituality of living with other believers so had left my rent free parents home....being in a small area, all of the believers were already tapped out for sponsorship....and and AND...I had the nerve to still keep a pet that year...gasp....the shame So because of my lack of believing, my obvious lack of corpes *heart* I was treated to my very first spittle flying face melting by rich waddlkins. He was so big and my bed room was so small... his bellowing terrifiying...his scorn so scathing ... every ounce of self esteem and worth destroyed...I would have promised anything to be permitted to crawl on my belly back in to the presence of God........I asked meekly if he thought that going wow would help me improve what I was so soarly lacking... I`ll tell you what, I genuinely wish I could have a chance to speak to that pompous bullying foot face to face today :) and it WOULDNT be a cowering terrified slip of a girl that big goon would be facing...lol...and THIS time...it wouldn`t be HIM that was doing the confronting or cowering.. Some leaders genuinely seemed to like having an excuse to unload on people. JJ, I am sorry that your family was so fractured by these bullies, I kicked mine to the curb because they were not in the ministry. It has taken twenty years, but the wounds heal, and though I can never retrieve the time, lost, the parties, weddings, funerals and vacations missed that bind a family together that form and strengthen those bonds, they have in time made a place for me. In time, I hope your family replaces what was stolen.

Thanks Geisha, I talked with the minister last night that has pastored the church that the kids and I have attended since leaving twi. She is retiring, in June, her last act? To propose that the churches college scholorship be awarded to my kiddo this year. Know what? We aren`t even members! This is the same lady that broke the barriers and obsticals down that were preventing daughters entry in to college last year. Same lady that when she found out I was sick a couple of years back and hadn`t the money to go to the specialist, too ill to be able to do anything for myself, she got together the money, picked me up drove all the way to vanderbilt and stayed with me. She made sure that I had any medications I needed All of the doctrine and scriptural mania that plagued twi wouldn`t have meant squat in either situation, as a matter of fact we would have been roundly condemned for our lack of believing or for leaving spiritual doors open... The thing is, that the longer I am away from the practices of twi and their idea of what is spiritual or Godly, the more offensive their claims of being *the best* out there become to me. Now, having seen and interacted with folks that are genuinely filled with the spirit of God, who manifest his love, I can certainly see why wierwille and twi would work so hard to prejudice us to the point where we would avoid contact. The sad thing is, even after leaving, it seems like a bias that lingers and prevents us from enjoying the interaction and benefit of fellowshipping with some really great folks.

Well said! I think the *greatness* of twi doctrine lies in the permitting, sanctification and justification of just about any perversion one chooses to indulge in without consequence. It`s all good, this is the grace administration, anything as long as you can handle it....great stuff for anyone who doesn`t wish to have to make the tough choices in moral conduct. I have come to the conclusion that those great teachings and understandings can`t be worth too darned much if the end result is the real monsters that were bred and flourished in twi, the doctrine seems to facilitate a wide range of abuses. Remember when vp taught about counterfet? I think that he needed to create a distrust a lack of appreciation for churches, that what he taught was somehow special so that people would not find that what he was teaching was bogus, other wise once becoming familiar with the genuine love of God and people with no real agenda, that we might see right through his little charade. He, and now they HAVE to persuade folks that their research is valuable, only available there, or people wouldn`t put up with the enslavement and abuse. All you have to do is look at the damage wrought to know how valuable, spiritual, accurate or important their doctrine really is.

OMG, you must be right :o Well said Belle, learning to reconsider things from outside of twi perspective was one of the most difficult challenges I have faced.

I never could see the *greatness* in this class that everyone so glowingly painted. Course I didn`t want to be such a spiritual moron that I couldn`t see what everyone else saw, so it was like you guys said...I kept retaking the class and others to understand, to be spiritually mature and sharp....to get that knowledge that would make me a real spiritual warrior sigh. Take these classes, you will see, go wow, you will grow, advanced class you will get there...corpes program will get you there...oops that is a life time commitment. Yes, pfal was the beginning of the entrapment, the snare.

Lol...is it not ironic?? The ministry founded by a man who believed women were always to occupy a subservient position to a mog??? His baby, his pride and joy...his lifes work... now being RUN by snort a lowly woman! Worse yet a woman who seemingly surrounds herself with ulp that which they fear and despise the most...the lowest of the low..... Lesbians!!!...lmao and the wife of the disgraced second president a rumored participant...what a testimony...What a legacy I sometimes wonder if God has a sense of humor. Too bad people still take these people seriously...sigh

I am unsure if this should be here, or in memorial or doctrinal forums, since it kind of touches on several areas. Please feel free to move it to the appropriate section. I wanted to tell about my friend Laura`s sister and her passing this week. Edith was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer earlier this year. She fought long and hard, always believing that she would beat it, unfailingly upbeat and positive in her outlook,courageous in her faith. I never met her personally, just talked with her over the phone, our bible study group at church had kept her in our weekly prayers. Laura called me last night after Ediths funeral to thank us for the prayers, I apologized, thinking that they hadn`t done a hell of a lot of good...Laura was really excited, not what I would expect after laying her sister to rest. She strongly objected to the idea that the prayers had been useless and told me of Ediths final hours. Edith`s family had taken turns all day at her bedside, the final shift being taken by a cousin who was also a nurse. These are the events she witnessed and shared afterward: Joan and Edith laughed and talked for 5 hours. At some point, Edith appeared to begin noticing others in the room, even though still seemingly lucid and talking to Joan. Her joy grew as she greeted deceased grandparents, friends that had passed away in her youth. She grew ever more excited and joy filled with each new recognition. At one point she delightedly exclaimed, *Why Lauren, just look at you up and walking around!!! Lauren I found out later, was a beloved niece that had passed away at 6 years old never having walked. After a while, Edith in incredulous suprise greeted a horse...Joan said that she then reached up to gently scratch his neck, and drew it to her embracing in a blissful hug. She reached up as if grabbing a handful of mane, lifted her leg as if sliding up it`s back and mounting...her expression incredulous, as she straightened and exclaimed *Oh Joanie, it is SO much more beautiful here than we ever could have imagined*. Edith was beaming as she bid Joanie goodbye seemingly focused eagerly on the adventure unfolding before her. It was at that point, her breathing changed. Joan hurriedly awoke Ediths son. His mother tenderly baid him goodbye, again mumuring *it is so much more beautiful than we could have ever ever imagined....as she faded away filled with a joy, at peace. At the funeral, the joy eminating from the two folks that had witnessed her passing was inspiring. Laura said that you couldn`t wipe the grin off of the son`s face. I know this runs counter to what we were taught and believed. I know that folks will wondering if she was hallucinating or being tricked by devil spirits masquerading yadda yadda....sigh. I have to wonder, I know that what happened to Edith was going to happen regardless, she was going to see what she was going to see...experience what she experienced. She would pass not only in peace, and with a joy so profound that it moved those around her. What is to me humbling, is the feeling that God alowed her to share a bit with us,seemingly peeled back the veil so to speak, permitting us to catch just a brief glimpse of what awaits us, a comforting if you will to those of us left here struggling to understand, to endure the difficulties each day present. Laura asked me to thank all who had prayed, believing that those prayers for her sister were an integral part of what made her passing the not only peaceful, but the profoundly inspirational event.

Shellon, whew that was well written, so expressive of the difficulties endured. The control that they assumed over our lives, is simply astonishing. You bring back the frustration and questions about why we submitted, why we allowed ourselves to be silenced, why we complied with insane edicts...sigh It is un imaginable that they made our basic choices, even down to deciding whether we were allowed to produce children at a given time. The demands that you submit to all of those guys, opening your home and check book at all hours of the night....geemany...That leader saying that about your sweet teenaged daughter, demonstrates how completely insane they were in just assuming that this was an acceptable thing to tell a 16 yr olds mother.... Wow, what lunatics. Thank God that you are free, that your children had such a fiercely tough and independent mama that would fight so selflessly for their safety and freedom.... It frightens me how much easier that it would have been to just turn off your heart, shut out that inner voice and submit brokenly...to be swallowed up by twi. You are a strong woman.

Yup, the *fruit* he manifested would appear to support this possibility. I just don`t think that God would have had anything to do with leading us to a place where we would be abused and exploited. It`s an insult, imo

I noticed that when I was involved, that anybody with any need was promised healing and wholeness through what twi had to offer. There would be no appeal to so called *normals* To any who were vulnerable, the lure was irresistable. Family, stability, love, prosperity, healing...we would jump through hoops for many years to achieve the promised results...In the end, you either came to believe the hype, or realized that you had been suckered all along.

Yes, saw these attributes all the way up and down the way tree also, accompanied with great sounding biblical reasons why these things were not only excusable, but admirable. I also think that there is a lot of alcoholism post twi. I think that in many cases this and other long standing issues needing to be addressed are ignored because of the learned distrust of health care providers, and it being seen as weakness.