rascal

The coyotes here don`t bother anything. The horses and cows are too big. A dog will run them off, they are very shy. As I understand it, they mainly eat rats and mice. If you thin them out, you then have a rodent problem. I like them, I like hearing their beautiful chorus in the evenings> There has never been an attack in living memory in our community.

Good analogy.......twi HAS been hemoraging out every orface :)

I don`t see why anybody would have a problem with that.

Thanks Penworks, I believe you that not all leaders were privy to lock box. I think wierwille needed the legitimacy of upstanding people to stand behind. He needed people of unquestionable character to be what the general public saw. I think that folks were carefully monitored as to who could *handle it* Most of us who met these genuine Christians, believed that twi was a spiritually wholsom group...the enthusiasm, the love was unmistakable. Some of the most incredibly kind people I met were in twi. I have read where *lock box* was used to silence parents of children whom were sexually abused, and prevent them from seeking legal justice. Only to find out later the predator had been moved to another state and the believers never warned.

Why do you have a problem with Christian morals??

I am just so glad that people are exposing the predators, bringing their abuses to light, so that everyone can see what these folks really were....what was undernieth the thin veneer of their christian label....that this wasn`t just a momentary lapse of judgement in an otherwise exemplary life.

That was nice Mike, thank you.

Just finished listening to the interview by Paw and Kris Skedgill. Putting that information together along with the accounts by jim doop on how when vp came to california, he was inordinantly interested in the rumours of free love and orgies..that he spent a lot of time at the porno flicks. Hearing pawtuckets description of the creepy way the guy was eye balling women, knowing now, that it was a sexual thing, and the girls being unaware that the looks were anything other than the love of God, from a trusted father figure. Gosh, I remember being so young and naieve, no wierwille didn`t try to get me...but I was once cornered by nasty old man in an authority position once. When I fled, when I told why to my boss...I was fired and then treated like I was a horrible person. People whom I had thought of as friends all turned their backs. I felt dirty and ashamed. I was so dissapointed in the man. Now I am faced with a situation with my 19 year old daughter and she is the focus of a 60 some year old mans interests. This man is well thought of and respected, he is in a position of high authority. Moral.... upstanding, beyond reproach...UNTILL he wanted my 19 year old to be *his lady* No he isn`t doing anything technically wrong, his wife just left him...and I really don`t feel like it will be an issue after this. . But the thing is....it brings home how totally offensive and completely innapropriate what wierwille did, and taught his leaders to do :( The differences between my kiddo and the strength that she shows...and me...(so many of us), and how I handled it 30 years ago makes me proud. But then again my kiddo grew up totally different than I did. I just know that for the young girl, for the one whom is seeking love, and approval, the girl whom has grown up without guidance ...the girl whom is completely oblivious to sexual attention...sigh it is very disturbing and confusing to like and respect someone, to interact and care for...to respect as an authority figure....to suddenly find oneself viewed as a sexual object is shocking. When the lady on the interview talks about having those boundaries erased by previous sexual inapropriatness...it put several pieces of the puzzle together and is even more upsetting.. I mean it brought back how unwanted sexual attention from an innapropriate source.....you know it is wrong, it is frightening, it is disgusting and creepy, you are so deeply ashamed, but it is so hard to stand up for yourself, to tell the one making the advances stop......you tell yourself that you are simply misunderstanding his intentions, ... untill maybe it is too late...when you stand up and say no...if you do...it eats you up inside...you feel stupid, you feel ugly ...you wonder what you did wrong to give the impression that you wanted that kind of attention. You don`t want them to be mad at you, you don`t want them to not like you any more :( Sexual predators get this I guess...and hearing the accounts where wierwille promised to heal sexual abuse victims ... hearing how he targetted victims of abuse....how he cornered girls and had sex with them after they had been given drinks that put them out...are all the more upsetting...how vindictive he was when refused...destroying reputation and alienating from family....doing everything in his power to hurt, like some petulant 2 yr old. I guess I want to say that for a woman...it ISN`T flattering, It IS a big deal, and it ISN`T something that someone likes to talk about....no young girl wants the attentions of an old man....it makes you ashamed and eats you up inside....it doesn`t go away...whether you actually had sex or were just pressured and had to flee. God, to present ones self as a minister, to present ones self as the man of God with all answers to life and Godliness, to lower womens guard by presenting ones self as a loving grandfather figure, someone safe, their wisdom promises to help one overcome all of the obstacles that have been placed in their path....to target those already vulnerable, to me is so deeply offensive. To seemingly have God`s backing and seal of approval all complete with scriptural back up....is absolutely sickening. It is so much more damnable than your run of the mill sexual predator. To minimalize the many many accounts of all of this, and claim as folks have that it wasn`t so bad because we all sin, that vp taught us the word and we need to forgive, that we need to not talk about this stuff, to claim that we should have just walked away, there were no weapons held to our head etc. is just so wrong. This isn`t just about sexual abuse either. My disgust and anger is about everything that was taken from so many many of us, so much suffering, so many destroyed at the hands of this man and his ministry :(

Thanks Paw and Kris. Gosh the final pieces of the puzzle. The parts about grooming, about girls whom were previously sexually abused being sitting ducks really made me sit up and take notice. Understanding why people were vulnerable. Being able to ubderstand that feeling of *something just isn`t right* but unable to put my finger on it. Thankyou for taking the time to do this. I am looking forward to reading your book.

Mike, I understand your premiss. I understand that your belief system is in complete disagreement with scriptural instructions that that every warning God gives in the scripture concerning false prophets, every measuring stick we are given where by to judge a persons spirituality...all soundly condemn wierwille AND his doctrine...and warn us away from creeps like that. To use his doctrine to reason why a person is required to shut up about the crimes, the wrongs committed, to silence the evidence of the very fruit where by we are to judge this man and his ministry. This thread is about forgivness, not about why vic and his class are great.

No thanks Mike, I have seen first hand the results of pfal belief. Vic wierwille himself...martindale...so many many whom bought into his schpeal eventually became the most viscious and cruel people it has ever been my misfortune to meet. Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.

You know....even if per chance I were to arbitrarily *forgive* these scum, without the pre requisit of repentance, and asking... It wouldn`t change my responsibility to shout their evil from the roof tops....AND ... It wouldn`t help these guys a bit....They`d STILL be men *of the flesh* AND *without inheritance in the kingdom of heaven*, according to galatians..

Hey Sprawled out...will you tell him from me too? Please? Tell him that there were folks with whom his music resonated? He sang at the wow training during break in 85/86 and seemed troubled. It seemed so rude that we were all up and milling around....I always wondered if something was up. I never saw him sing after that. Didn`t he sing on an old tape called ambassadors? I still have and love dearly. I only play it once in a great while for fear that it will disintegrate.

Mike said......From what I've seen in God's Word, we ALL are disgusting when we walk in our old man nature. The degrees or intensity of how evil any one action is are a purely human phenomenon. What we humans perceive as “not all THAT bad” really means we perceive the damage to others as minimal. Judging from scriptures, I`d say God differs in that opinion...there is sin, and then there is a list of abominations. THAT is pure Bull sheet, taught by a man of the flesh so that his heinous walk of the flesh didn`t appear to be so horrific. Mike also said..........For instance, getting drunk and driving a car that hurts someone else is considered by humans as very evil nowadays. Getting equally drunk and sitting on the front porch is something we might be more willing to give a pass for, even though God is robbed of the fellowship He craves and deserves equally in both instances. I (rascal) think that is completely insane....someone who drinks and hurts or kills someone?? In one instance you have pain, expenses, medical expenses loss of life, loss that never ends for family members deprived of their loved ones....verses someone having a good time in the safety of their own home....geemany what an assinine statement. Yet I get it....if adultery, drugging and raping your flock can be equated with letting a dirty word slip, then one is half way there to excusing the evidence of wierwilles fruit that totally busts him as a man of the flesh. Mike said....The sense-knowledge recognition of degrees of evil is superficial and dull. What happens in the heart is very difficult for people (and especially governments) to discern, so we usually fall back on the focusing on the external damage caused to weigh the degree of evil from our perspective. In everyday life we often give a pass to those who do not have the ABILITY to harm us, even though their hearts may be quite off base. God is equally offended because He looks at the heart. I (rascal) say that is sense knowledge crap to attempt to excuse the significance of the fruit of a mans life. Galations 5 tells us EXACTLY how to know what PRECISELY is in a mans heart. That you chose to ignore it doesn`t mean that God didn`t give us warnings, sign posts and measuring sticks by which to ascertain a man`s spirituality or lack there of. Mike, the doctrine of a man of the flesh will always lack legitimacy in spiritual matters...He just can`t grasp or comprehend those things....so he spends his life doing works. Vic was able to fool people as long as his dirty little secrets were kept lock box. Now that his fruit is out there for the whole world to examine, most people can recognize and accept him for the Man of the flesh, the wolf in sheeps clothing, the devourer of the flock that he really was. God said we could tell one another by our fruit. Your doctrine is built around saying we can`t and explaining why fruit is not significant. I`m telling you....all of the white wash in the world cannot cover the putrid stenche of the disease and decay inside THAT sepulcher. Soooo what do you do WTH? Hand out bean sprouts n tofu? I gave what I had, left over pizza from the restaurant I worked at. I gave my own lunch, and if I didn`t have anything to eat, I bought what I could afford, a dollar double cheese burger. Shrug...I guess that wasn`t good enough.

I don`t believe that he actually CAN answer the questiona posed.... Mike is carefully laying his bread crumb trail for the rest of us to follow to his ultimate conclusion....ie go back to plaf. Ideally, all his students would sit politely with their hands folded at their desks, attention eagerly focused on the teacher, awaiting him to supply all of the answers that we have missed through our slothfulness :)

I am looking forward to it. Thanks Paw :)

Mathew 17 is rather inconvenient as well... 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit Darned tootin I have reason to suspect that wiewille was never born again, Jonny..... 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Things look bleak for wierwille and his buddies.

Jonny, I don`t know what God will do...never claimed to. In response to Mike`s exhortation...I tried to place myself in the situation where I had to answer to Jesus for what I had written here. I just took a passage of scriptures where Jesus was talking to people who desired entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and tried to adapt it to this scenario. In the teaching, Jesus related how some were allowed entrance because they fed the hungry, gave the thirsty to drink, and visited those in he jails. Jesus said, that he *knew* them. Some were told to depart, even though they pompously proclaimed to have cast out demons and prophesied in Jesus name...but when asked, admitted that they didn`t feed the hungry, give the thirsty to drink, visit those in jails. Jesus didn`t ask em did they speak in tongues, did they say romans 10:9 & 10 He didn`t ask if they had studied to show themselves approved....how much they had tithed, didn`t forgive them...he just told them to get the heck out! Yes I know, just another passage in the bible that needs to conveniently be ignored if we are to follow wiewilles doctrines. Galatians doesn`t say what we want, Mathew 25 is rather inconvenient, let`s tear em out of the bible.

The above scenario was mostly tongue in cheek. I know that I don`t always do as well as I would like...I know that I will have plenty to answer for myself if I ever get to meet Jesus face to face...missed opportunities for kindness, times I could have done more.....but one thing is for darned sure.....I sure as HECK am not afraid to stand by my posts at grease spot that are meerly talking about, and expressing my disgust at what vp and his hand picked leaders in twi actually DID to the innocents under their care :(

Snort...Imagining Jesus looking sternly at Rascal on judgement day....Rascal...did you call vic wierwille a wolf in sheeps clothing 423 times...ummm well...uhhh yessir. Did you call craig martindale an amoral pervert ...132 times....well um errr yes sir I guess that I did.... Did you in fact call these men and their ministry falses prophets, devourers of God`s people?? Uhhh yessir I guess that I did. DO you stand by these posts?? Well, uh yessir I guess that I believed that to be the truth about anyone who did what they did to so many of my brothers and sisters in Christ :( Did you feed me when I was hungry?? Did you visit me when I was in jail? Did you give me a drink when I was thirsty?? Rascal: Well sir, I don`t remember seeing you in particular... JC: Well wasn`t there was always extra spaghetti or soup in the pot for a sick neighbor?? Rascal: Well ...yeah ... I fed any strays that I could human, but mostly animal... JC: and didn`t you volunteer in the animal shelters, the battered womans shelter???? Rascal: Well, yes, I did... .... JC: I know that in town, I saw you buy burgers at mcdonalds to throw to the mangy stray cat that lived under the bush outside...I saw the times you drove around and tossed pizza slices to the stray dogs on cold nights. The times you gave your lunch to the starving mama dogs who couldn`t feed their pups... Rascal; Well ummm I tried, and I tried to teach my children to ease suffering where they could too :( JC: Well you know now...that when you did that to the least of these...you really did it unto me... ... Vic wierwille....did you in fact commit adultery against your wife 2012 times? Did you steal from bg leanard and claim his work for your own?? Did you lie through out your whole life time, did you destroy lives when you promised to heal them sexually?? Did you drink yourself into stupidity day after day and then go into towering rages??? Did you beat your dogs mercillessly???Did you in fact have sex with my innocent lambs after they had been drugged? Did you throw my virgin children whom refused to the street, doing everything within your power to alienate them from friends family and the ministry that you claimed would lead them to me, in order to cover your tracks?? Did you make your buddies leaders and teach them to do likewise?? Did you use the abs that you said I required from struggling families, money collected for my work and buy motorcycles, air planes, and tour buses for your personal entertainment?? VP: Uh well yeah, I was the man of God for our day and time teaching the word...I was like an old testiment king..those were my rightful due......why...I deserved those things.... Did you feed me when I was hungry?? Did you visit me when I was in jail?? Did you give me something to drink when I was thirsty?? VP: Uh when were YOU there..I didn`t see you....We all know that THOSE people were there because of their believing and needed to take my class. JC: Well when you didn`t do it for the least of these...you didn`t do it for me... VP: Uh well, no...um I didn`t need to...see I taught classes on the bible (aka.... I propesied in your name, I cast demons out, I did great works in your name) JC: When you didn`t do it to those who were least, you denied me personally ... VP: oh...but hey man, I taught the bible like it hadn`t been heard since the first century.... JC: When you did these things to the least of these my bretheren......you did them unto me...*Depart for I knew you not* :( Personally? I don`t think it is gonna be pretty.

Damned right Bride of JC. Great points TBone, thank you. I certainly didn`t have the energy to address that.

Ham, this is where the doctrine, the knowledge of twi led us. All of the focus on speaking in tongues, on knowledge of the scriptures, on operation of principles, the application of immutable laws, the perfectly in order physicals. If galatians is to be believed, I think that wierwille missed the boat spiritually and led a lot of people down the toilet with him.

On the OTHER side of the coin Waysider.... 19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are : immorality, I believe this applies to wiewille :impurity, Absolutely... :indecency...ditto 20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies), 21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mike, I kind of figured that you weren`t really interested in my perspective. I know that you are a whiz at ignoring that which doesn`t support your pet theories. I know that you can come up with reams of scriptures as to why it is ok to ignore galatians, or any other scripture that doesn`t support your premiss. I am not interested, because I have read it all before. Dove, suit yourself. If you don`t want to read what I wrote to you, and insist on applying it to someone else...Why bother to read my posts at all? Why just read them to try to twist them into saying something that I am not?