rascal

Aww be fair wth, we bring up the sins of the twi ministers still alive too :) I am an equal opportunity discusser of the crimes of scum bags masquerading as ministers for God, be they living OR dead, in twi or out. I suppose if one doesn`t want their lives the topic of discussion...the solution is simple...don`t commit heinous crimes against unsuspecting victims. If you did it...and don`t want people STILL talking about it...repent, apologize, and make amends......THEN I guess all we will have to talk about is the healing.

I think what you describe oldies, sounds like his *company manners* as I tell my teenagers, who are now falling in love, wanting to move out, get married etc. It take a long time to see who and what is actually behind the facade that people want you to see. I think that was why God gave us a clear list.

Darned tootin, all have sinned and fallen short, but what the heck does that have to do with fruit of the flesh?? Those are specific attributes that reveal to the outside observer what is on the inside of a person. I can understand why you would want to dismiss the implications wth, you don`t want to face the truth of what they reveal.

Laugh yourself silly WTH. The proofs in the pudding....you either manifest fruit of the spirit or fruit of the flesh... You it seems are bent on excusing fruit of the flesh as unimportant...shrug...that is completely contrary to the scriptures...so be it. I happen to think that galatians 5 is significant. As far as me?? I never claimed to be a man of God with the word since it hadn`t know since the first century... I tend to expect a little more from someone who makes that claim....And secondly, quite frankly, I don`t believe (if we are to acknowledge the evidence in his life) that wierwille WAS my brother....Jesus said by our fruits would we recognize one another, when asked. And thirdly... I chose to treat him with as much dislike as Jesus did the pharacees and money changers that he chased out of temple and called horrible names. If that is wrong, at least I was following scriptural instruction...How much scripture did you have to ignore in order to maintain your position?

Wow a very good point. There were some really great people in twi that tried to make a difference, but because of the way the organization was set up....they never had a chance to fix it. It was my (vic`s) way or the high way. :(

I dooj, I am aware of that, and am in agreement..... I thought people understood that I was talking about the perception of being moraly upright and respected.....sigh....My thoughts were going in another direction so I only briefly touched on this other issue. Jonny, heres food for thought..... You have been mistaken in your perceptions of people, their motives and the points that they were trying to make before. Is it possible that you are mistaken about what is occuring here and underestimating it`s value? Just food for thought.

Thanks Wolf for not letting my point get lost amongst the obfuscation. Sure, Paul did awful things in the name of God....BEFORE the life changing impact of the new birth. Wierwille did awful things his entire life.....he never changed...he acted as a man of the flesh....he spent most of his life finding out ways to make the scriptures say what he WANTED them to say....so that he could do as he damned well pleased. These are not the actions of a man of the spirit...but a man of the flesh that simply claims to be spiritual. That is why we were told to examine the fruit in someones life...you just can`t tell by what they say, or their works. No the key words are fruit, and what their presence, or lack of signifies.

Just a hair short?? That is pretty calloused even from you wth.

I agree completely Bow...I said that he was moral upright and so forth UNTILL he wanted my daughter for *his lady* Technicaly...ie legally what he did is not wrong. Moraly, it was inapropriate. He will not be allowed access to her. And finally, from a parents point of view inexcusable and deeply offensive. Yes, I told Mark, I also told the other parents in class, and I told the teacher. There are no other girls besides mine. I agree, it was repulsive, and inapropriate. It has been addressed. The man is being carefully watched. He isn`t permited alone with any of the students. Jesse never even had to speak to him....I don`t know what else one can do. I didn`t go into the full details because the focus of my thoughts were on how repulsive it is for a man in authority, one who masquerades as someone worthy of respect, gains respect, and then betrays that trust. That wierwille did it as a minister with scriptures even more so :(

DOOJ, that is PRECISELY what I am talking about. You are just saying it different. The people in off shoots may have the best of intentions, they may very well and probably are spirit filled christians doing their best to live an exemplary life.....The question is...is doctrine that allowed abuse, are the practices that enabled evil to flourish and destroy so many still in place, ready for the next nut job or predator that comes along. Are men of the flesh still able to masquerade as men of the spirit, the defining fruit in their lives still ignored or excused? VP was a sexual predator, he educated and then placed predators in charge of peoples lives. People were hurt and had no recourse. Is there a set of checks and balances to prevent predators and bullies from harming people in God`s name in the off shoots who have relied on twi leaders and doctrines as their rules of faith and practice? Paul was the perfect example, I think that you are dead on topic dooj. Thanks for your thoughts :)

Dooj, great points...... I think that the concern about off shoots would be that they THINK that they have fixed the problems of twi....ie left egypt with the gold....but yet the same doctrine that allowed the abuse, that enabled the bully or predator access to prey, are still firmly in place. While a good hearted christian, a man of the spirit can operate within the parameters without harming. One who is of the flesh...yes even if he doesn`t believe that this is the case....still has the tools provided by the doctrine at their disposal to ensnare and enslave. It is my belief that it takes stepping away from hearing what you want from people that agree with you (not you dooj, but off shoots) to gain a healthy perspective and perhaps recognize the damaging docctrine and practice. I don`t believe most of the people in the off shoots, no matter how good their intentions have takien this necessary step.

Bride of JC, thank you for that gentle exhortation. I will consider your words, Thank you :)

Well yes...that is always an option. But if one has not had the guidance growing up, if one has had those boundaries erased by abuse. One of the results can be a lack in the confidence in ones own perceptions and judgements to stand up for ones self. It is my belief that people were targeted (as with perdators every where) who wouldn`t have the confidence to refuse or to speak up when accosted. Couple that with no accountability by the organizations leaders, a discouragement to go to law enforcement, a lack of being believed because one has been declared possessed....a fear of leaving God`s hand of blessing and protection if thrown out...It kind of boxes one in. If you don`t think that you can get away, that it is required by God....the boundaries are every bit as real as physical obsticles. I think that in using God, in using scripture as the weapon to ensure compliance and silence, this makes these guys even more slimey than your garden variety pervert. It is so hard to go against what you have been taught that God requires.

It applies Dooj. Congratulations to your daughter for having good sense. A tribute no doubt to the strong Mom who raised her to be confidant to do the right thing, even when uncomfortable. The boundaries are firmly in place for that kiddo. I think that Kirsten Skedgills remarks about people who were lacking in guidance, or had those boundary lines erased by abuse...is directly applicable here....as to why some were strong and stood up, and some were intimidated into compliance and silence :( I agree that any off shoot of twi needs to have stops in place to protect people. In the case of the ces debacle, it didn`t seem like people had any choice once the wife of a leader pronounced them posessed or whatever. People had no recourse there.

My mom did the same thing for several of my sisters and my friends, back in the 70s.

I guess my problem is with people trying to elevate a man of the flesh, a destroyer of christian lives, a man who sated his lusts and filled his belly resulting in the so much pain. A false prophet who`s doctrine drew people away from God and placed them in bondage to men of no character and integrety to be used and when the usefullness was exhausted ...tossed them away lioke so much garbage. It reminds me of pimps and drug dealers. You THEN have people who want to take these men that did these things in the name of God, and elevate them to christian status, accord them the respect and consideration due a man of the spirit, and insist that we regard these men with the love and respect due a selfless minister and leader ...AND their doctrine as spiritually wholsome and worthy of the treatment of one of the flock. I don`t think so :(

Lol Don, glad that you feel better :) You know, Nobody wishes more than me that vp, twi, pfal had been what we believed them to be :( Bramble, I imagine that you are correct. My husband, myself, the people that we interacted with...were completely naieve and oblivious to the more sinister implications or applications of the doctrine. People could hear the same doctrine and arrive at completely different conclusions. I absolutely assumed that pre marital sex, drugs, etc were completely out of bounds...never dreamed untill 5 years in that everyone didn`t think that. I talked with a woman at length one time who was so naieve in her outlook, so completely pure in her heart to serve God, that when she entered the way corpes, she never DREAMED that she was being groomed for lcm... She was in *special* work crew, *special* twig ...where things were said, where the doctrines of the king, and all parts of the body being equal, and serving the man of God, taking care of his needs (she was completely unaware that this had sexual connotations) so that he could better minister to the rest of the body....what a special, noble calling. She did NOT know untill she was handed up to craig by her tc on a silver platter and he point blank told her that he wanted her in a threesom :( She was completely unprepared mentally, or emotionally because in spite of being indoctrinated...she never understood the deeper implications of what they were saying. When she refused....she was taken under guard and required to pack and escorted off the property. By the time the poor girl made it back to her home state everyone had been called and told she was possessed. Nobody, nobody she knew would even speak to her to hear her side of the story :( She darn near didn`t survive. Polar Bear, thank you, thank you very much. I don`t know if it is bravery or just being really, really mad at the betrayal

Great point Bramble and Don. I justdon`t know if a group CAN be spiritually healthy in their doctrine if they don`t get completely away from folks that think, believe, speak the same tightly controlled thoughts and beliefs that we ourselves hold to be truth. Folks can believe what they want, that isn`t my point. Its been my experience that God still looks after us and works as best he can within the parameters that we allow. It is of concern though if a doctrine that was compiled by a man of the flesh is still regarded as the end all be all truth and being used to ensnare, to place people into bondage....under the control of another. Do you think this is the difference in what people experienced in twi? In the hands of the people who were of the spirit, the doctrine learned was realitively innocuous, because they did what they did right or wrong, was done with the love of God in their hearts....people saw that and were blessed? By the same token, in the hands of a person of the flesh...the doctrine, it became a dangerous tool to hurt, to bully, to take that which wasn`t theirs. Could it be that what was so right in twi wasn`t the doctrine at all, but the people of the spirit, who were walking with the love of God? Could that be the reason for the diverse experiences? I have seen the the same thing in my friend in the mormon church, and another in the catholic church. In spite of the intentions of the leaders of the splinter tgroups, I think as Bramble said, the doctrine and practice can make a haven for predators and abuse. :(

Why would I believe the words of a man of the flesh used to justify himself and his fruit?? His dirty little secrets out, vp`s credibility is in the toilet...why on EARTH would I care one iota about what he (or anybody) about thinks of my opinions of his fruit?

No, thankyou.

Oldies, if you are going to quote me please, be HONEST and use the entire quote as written instead of just part so that you change the meaning. You left out the very important *after the new birth* at the end of my sentence. What I SAID was...... Paul didn`t witness to the ladies promising them deliverance and all the answers to life and Godliness and turn around and tell them that God wanted them to service him sexually. Paul didn`t have his acolyte drug the young women and then rape them. Paul didn`t throw the non compliant from the ministry when they refused. Paul did not destroy lives and tear families assunder at a whim. Paul was not an alcoholic adultering lying piece of scum, that used the scriptures and the name of God to steal that which was not his after the new birth :( Old paul was a changed man after the new birth, a man of the spirit....what the hell was wierwilles excuse?? He was a man of the flesh...he will suffer the consequence. Scriptures say he won`t have an inheritance.

Galatians chapter 5 is ALL about separation and distinction...and it keeps it simple

I really WISH that you would stop turning THIS thread ON forgivness into a vic/pfal is great promo. He was scum, his doctrine of COURSE supported his scumminess, and his doctrine is NOW being used to attempt to require forgivness and silence the reports of his scumminess. Did I mention that I thought the man was scum??? :( If the reports of his fruit can be successfully silenced, eliminated from examination, then we have nothing left but opinions and impressions aquired while under the influence of a man of the flesh.

The adaptation is more of an illusion. Paul didn`t witness to the ladies promising them deliverance and all the answers to life and Godliness and turn around and tell them that God wanted them to service him sexually. Paul didn`t have his acolyte drug the young women and then rape them. Paul didn`t throw the non compliant from the ministry when they refused. Paul did not destroy lives and tear families assunder at a whim. Paul was not an alcoholic adultering lying piece of scum, that used the scriptures and the name of God to steal that which was not his after the new birth :( To attempt to draw a parallell between his life and walk and that of a man of the flesh piece of crap like wierwille who has no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven....is deeply offensive, and damned near blashphemy in my book. Waysider is right...it was just plain weak.

Geeze jonny, why in the WORLD would you decide what it *sounds like I am saying*???? I meerly reported what the coyotes are like HERE. That if they get thinned out we have a rodent problem HERE. That despite large multiple packs in the area HERE, we have never had an attack in living memory HERE. Also that *I* like to hear them in the evenings HERE. That does not have to be viewed as an attempt to negate your point. I wish that you would stop attempting to redefine my position...Thank you. I would also add that we have a large deer population, so it doesn`t appear that coyotes don`t bother them much either. All of us in the valley have cats and small dogs and have not suffered loss. Truth be known, it is the owls that are the most dangerous predators to domestic animals and livestock here :) I am sure that there are isolated instances...shrug...I just thought that the consequences of thinning them out are something to be considered, and possibly more troublesome than their continued presence.