rascal

You know Mike, it COULD be both...I never ever said that it was all one or the other....gosh you seem to feel like you scored some sort of a point ...As far as me personally?? I think that he stol er borrowed from many sources...some genuine christians, others not...in short anything, or anyone that could add seeming legitimacy to him...that could be twisted into appearing to support whatever evil he wanted to imbibe in. Did not Satan himself in the scriptures...use valid points and twist them to deceive eve and Jesus?

It has been indicated time and again that those of us who show a lack of appreciation for our treatment in twi were mentally weak, or incapacitated by mental illness, else we wouldn`t have tolerated the abuse....certainly it wasn`t the ministries fault that we didn`t walk away if it didn`t suit us On another thread, it was said that leaving twi was really not much different than leaving any other religious group....that we weren`t under any kind of mind control or compunction....no gun held to our heads...yadda yadda I disagree....and wanted to discuss this issue without derailing the other thread. I personally have freely fellowshipped with baptist churches, methodist churches, support groups, spent some time in the catholic church, and the mormon church, plus a home fellowship and an independent church that I helped to start. Martial arts, volunteer groups, home school networks, bible study groups, theatre......all have their *religious* affiliations. I have never EVER had a difficult time leaving any activity or group when participation became problematic or unhealthy, or just flat out didn`t want to do it any more. I am 46 years old, I have had numerous life experiences where I stood up for myself, where I based my decisions on what was best for myself and family....yet for a decade in twi, I was completely dominated and controlled. I brokenly complied with every order in spite of my personal feelings and convictions because of their teachings... the mog must be obeyed....leaving equaled possession and death...etc Can you honestly tell me if twi WAS normal ...as has been maintained....that brainwashing or extreme manipulation of some sort wasn`t employed.........if those of us who suffered really were personally at fault or to blame.... Why interaction with twi be so much more detrimental than the dozens of other organizations and activities that I have participated in in this life??? Why was I so mentally weak, handicapped (I have been told)... only during only that particular decade? Why did I allow myself to be subjected to outrageous treatment, abuses and cruelty that I have never put up with before nor since??? Why did I comply with every order and edict issued, in spite of my personal misgivings, preferences, or opinions? What about involvement in twi made me so weak and spineless when following it`s doctrines, (WHICH incidently were supposed to make me more than a conquerer...spiritually strong....enjoy abundance..etc)? Why have the horrors suffered in twi, the manipulation, the deceit, that actions taken, had such great impact that I am still struggling, and haunted by after 15 years?? What is it about twi made us vulnerable and willing to endure the horror? Why did so many people die following instructions? Why were reputations savaged, lives destroyed? Why were families torn apart? Why were children cast to the streets? Why were ailing family blamed, shunned and ignored? Why is it that the actions enforced in twi still eat at so many of us 20 years later sad.gif Why is it that in a life time of experiences with a variety of people, the only time that I tolerated this treatment was during the decade spent in twi. I don`t think TWI was your run of the mill garden variety religious group, as has been intimated by those who chose to blame the rest of us for our stupidity, or lack of compassion and understanding...who chose to call us psychotic liars, perpetually whining victims....indulging in vpm (victim mentality propoganda) or we just didn`t master the right teachings.......else we could have walked away from it just like we did every other activity that we have taken up and then grown weary of. I think there was a deeper reason why we tolerated the abuse, the manipulation, that we allowed ourselves to be intimidated and stolen from. Why we stayed when things got bad... To minimalize what happened to us, to try to make it seem not so bad, or that it was our fault, to act like there is something wrong because we won`t shut up, or just forgive and forget...that other groups have similar problems...I think is not looking at the whole picture as to why we were vulnerable.

Oldies, I personally don`t believe that you have had much experience concerning leaving ANY other religious groups, or you wouldn`t have made that statement. I challenge you on that statement, because I believe that you are just parroting old twi propaganda. Seriously Oldies, can you honestly tell us how many religious organizations have you personally been involved with besides twi? How many have you actually participated in, became committed to over a period of time and the tried to leave?? I personally have freely fellowshipped with baptist churches, methodist churches, support groups, spent some time in the catholic church, and the mormon church, plus a home fellowship and an independent church that I helped to start. Martial arts, volunteer groups, home school networks, bible study groups......all have their *religious* affiliations. I have never EVER had a difficult time leaving any activity or group when participation became problematic or unhealthy. I am 46 years old, I have had numerous life experiences where I stood up for myself, where I based my decisions on what was best for myself and family....yet for a decade in twi, I was completely dominated and controlled. I brokenly complied with every order in spite of my personal feelings and convictions because of their teachins that the mog must be obeyed. Can you honestly tell me Why interaction with twi be so much more detrimental than the dozens of other organizations and activities that I have participated in in this lfe??? Why was I so mentally weak (as you have said) only during that particular decade? Why did I allow myself to be subjected to outragious treatment, things I have never put up with before nor since??? since. Why did I comply with every order and edict issued, in spite of my personal misgivings? What about involvement in twi made me so weak and spineless when following it`s doctrines, WHICH incidently were supposed to make me more than a conquerer...spiritually strong....enjoy abundance..etc? Why has the horrors suffered in twi, the manipulation, the deceit, had such great mpact that I am still struggling after 15 years?? What is it about twi made us vulnerable and willing to endure the horror? Why is it that the actions enforced in twi still eat at so many of us 20 years later :( Why is it that in a life time of experiences with a variety of people, the only time that I tolerated this treatment was during the decade spent in twi. TWI wasn`t your run of the mill garden variety religious group, as you intimated oldies....else we could have walked away from it just like we did every other activity that we grew weary of. I think that if you oldies, had ever been a part of anything besides twi...instead of basing your assumptions on here say...that you would have a healthier understanding of just exactly what involvement requires for most groups and activities, and not be able to justify twi`s abuses as *normal*

Copenhagen, I was told that LCM was just a bench warmer in college. I never ever heard vpw claim that he worked with either Oral Roberts, or Billy Graham...only that they had *blown it* spiritually because they only taught people how to get born again, but not the christian walk afterwards. The red drapes story was in pfal as an illustration of believing....nobody has ever verified this story. The key to the city story has never been verified, though mrs. w apparently mentions it in her book. Many of the wierwille kids were in india with him...maybe they can confirm.

Dearest ((Dot))) our prayers go with you as you journey forth. Your life, your love that you have so freely shared has had enormous impact. Thank you. Love, Cathy

Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death. It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame. I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it. Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death. It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame. I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it. Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death. It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame. I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.

What do I see in this fictitional ministers life in contrast to a normal mother?? It starts with a "D" and ends with a "L" and is often referred to as a *river in egypt* Another word that describes the fictitious minister starts with a *O and ends with a "S"...as in OBLIVIOUS, as in choses to be unaware of the dangers threatening ones children.

Hey Neo...I want to know, are you really ....ed at Don personally? What if Don can attest to have witnessed every single point mentioned in his post? Could it be that this fellow saw up close and personal that which offends you so? Could it be that this fellow stood up when no one else had the courage to and said this is wrong?? There are people here at this sight that lived and worked with this man vic wierwille whom you have only heard legends about. We know why he isn`t really a doctor...we know why his ministry failed and went in the toilet...we know why our brothers and sistersdissapeared mysteriously in the night. We knew personally the people that died. Can you honestly put aside your perception, the pictures that OTHERS have painted for you to examine what the people who were actually there with vpw saw, what they witnessed?? Have you got the courage to read about what so many of us saw with our own eyes? It takes honesty and courage to examine all of the evidence, not just that which supports what we wish to believe friend.

I suppose that would be fine if vic had only been alleged to have been an adulterer...I don`t think the other guys you mentioned, while indulging in their fornication and adultery, were drugging and raping their young charges though. There is a lot more than a few sexual indiscretions being laid at wierwille feet. I don`t see the swathe of destruction and broken lives left behind by the other fellows mentioned. I don`t see suicides, rapes, deaths from following the doctrine and instructions either.

Oh God Ex, you have touched on the most damaging doctrine taught by that miserable sob. The one time I ever really hurt my grandmother, the one time I really upset her to tears, was over this bull crap dogma. I pompously announced that her son whom had died as a teenager of hodgkins disease did so because of his *believing. As a mother now, I cringe at my arrogance and cruelty. To have watched a beloved son, struggle, suffer, and die ...to stand by unable to help as they faded away... to have to bury your sweet son....is unimaginable. To have some punk 18 year old snot announce that it was all his fault, that if he had believed just a little harder...he`d a been fine. It`s one of those things, the hurt in her eyes as she looked at me that will never go away. I too have obsessed over my childrens safety, who they were with, were they chaperoned, self defense, diet, whatever was within my power to give them the greatest chance of survival since the day they were born. It is called good parenting.

Neo, why would you defend a man who raped your sisters in christ physically, and your brothers spiritually?? I have to wonder at anyone who would attack another in defense of this man :(

More than one poster here have related accounts of him beating the holy h`ll out of his dog while the dog screamed in pain writhing beneith the blows. He claimed it was necessary to teach the dog not to dissobey. A rightious man regardeth the life of his beast. A rightious man is kind to all....are a few things scripturally that come to mind.

You know...this guy used the scriptures to teach people that it was ok NOT to do what God says we should. He used scriptures to teach that adultery was acceptible under certain circumstances, that drunkeness was ok, that cruel behavior was at times justified if one was spiritually angry...lying was at times necessary....etc. He used the scriptures to teach contrary to what Jesus said about examining fruit. Biggest of all...he used the scriptures to teach why the two great commandments weren`t applicable, and why we didn`t need to love others. He redefined neighbor to suit his purposes. Yeah he taught bible, but it would seem mostly as an escape clause and justification for any activity or perversion that he wished to indulge in. I think if we weren`t emotionally involved because he was *our* teacher, we might be a little more circumspect about this man and his activities. I think to label him as a christian is giving him WAY to much credit. To treat him with the respect and love due a brother in Christ when the fruit that we were told we would recognize one another was conspicuously absent through out his life, is I believe a mistake You know oldies? The scriptures talk about how easy it is to be nice to the people that you like....it says even the most evil people can manage that. So your stories of his pleasantness to a small group of people during a small time period, are not indicative of fruit that would identify him as a brother. I think wierwille probably really was nice to the people he liked, the folks that did the things that he liked, maybe you and your family saw that side of him. That however isn`t the mark of a christian or a rightious man who is kind to all. Do you know that even his treatment of his dog is condemned in the scriptures???

Thanks Eyes and Bramble. Truly, I have wondered...honest to goodness it isn`t my mission to be a class A pia....I have to figure that I just don`t articulate myself as well as the guys who don`t draw the fire... Well bless your heart, wth. You have to consider that you are using the doctrine manufactured by a man of the flesh to excuse the fruit that condemned him and his ministry. Wierwille was able to come up with doctrine and the scriptures to back it up that enslaved. His doctrine excused adultery, fornication, drunkeness, etc. The point I am trying to make is that you can make ANYTHING ok by wierwille logic. Scripturally, that is untrue.

Well that is the way I see it and why I believe it....If you can`t see it, I guess that you can`t, that in no way invalidates the point. On your side of the argument you have a scum bag lying adulterous alcoholic drugging and raping his flock claiming to be a man of God....shrug ... I that is complete contradiction to what scriptures tell us is necessary to qualify as a man of the spirit.

Bow, I just plain don`t know. But i`ll tell you this...IF vpw was God`s representative...IF he was a Godly man that just screwed up occasionally...but in spite of that he ran a ministry that was spiritually healthy...Than I really have a huge problem with a God that would lead me and others there to suffer, to be stolen from and to be destoyed. On the other hand...IF vp was a wolf in sheeps clothing, a false prophet that led people away from God...a deceiver who used scriptures and the authority and respect of a minister to lure in the unsuspecting victims....those who were unfamiliar with the grace of a loving God, and the behavior of genuine christian brothers and sisters... Then that is a God that I can trust, I can put my anger at our betrayal, my absolute disgust for the deception, my heart break over the pain suffered, the families destroyed, and the lives lost at the feet of these men...and not be mad at God...you know what I mean? It is important to me because how in the heck could I trust God knowing that he led us to such a place to be used, hurt and tossed aside like so much trash??

Amen Cool chef! You know? He`ll either be there or he won`t...as will we. We are all either right or wrong....I don`t see what that matters in the here and now except that it attacks his credibility as a christian, and the validity of his doctrine. It would be my opinion that anyone who isn`t showing the signs given , the stick by which we were given to measure ones spiritual health by, that their understanding of things of the spirit might be flawed.

As far as the *genuine christians I have met?? They are easy to spot by the fruit in their lives. The peace, joy, patience kindness, goodness, faithfullness....I have seen it, people really can act this way...It isn`t just some lable they wear...and something they do occasionally if the mood strikes them. I have met genuine christians in twi, I have met them in our little country methodist church, also in the big metro baptist church in town. I met folks in the Catholic church and the mormon church that would fit these descriptions ...so I don`t think what religious flavor you chose seems to be much of a factor. They live *love God and Love your neighbor* and the fruit in their life is evidence that it is genuine and real. Why is it that they CAN live the two great commandments...and they DO manifest the fruit of the spirit that identifies them as brothers and sisters in Christ...But the greatest biblical research and teaching in the world seems to allow, enable, breed some of the cruelest most self centered, viscious, self centered perverts it has been my misfortune to interact with?? Personally?? I think that this lends strong evidence to their sure fire formulas and understanding being flawed. Seems like biblical reasearch ala wierwille is simply knowledge that breeds arrogance, and an excuse why one is not only unable to follow the most basic of christian tenants, but the justification of why it is not necessary. Personally?? I`d say that would be the difference between the genuine and the counterfit.

Which would be bout now I guess :) First off, I said COMPANY, as in guests that you wish to impress....big difference their bud. Secondly, I`ll paste my answer from the other thread. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Seems a pretty straight forward way to identify to me. As are the previous verses .... 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. In Mathew 7....it describes who and what I believe vpw`s actions and fruit define him as. 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. As far as I am concerned...I personally think that after examining the evidence of the fruit in his life, that this will be the fate of wierwille 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' If I make it myself, judging from these scriptures....I really don`t expect to see wierwille or his ilk there.

I have explained it all before mike, to you n oldies both add nausium....and if I really thought for one instant that you or oldies were even remotely interested in my reasoning, or considering, or learning to think beyond your tiny little religious cocoon.....I`d do it all again..... I`ll chose to whom I answer, and when, IF I feel so motivated :)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Seems a pretty straight forward way to identify to me. As are the previous verses .... 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. In Mathew 7....it describes who and what I believe vpw`s actions and fruit define him as. 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. As far as I am concerned...I personally think that after examining the evidence of the fruit in his life, that this will the fate of wierwille 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' If I make it myself, judging from these scriptures....I really don`t expect to see wierwille or his ilk there.

Well Bow, I don`t believe anything those monsters taught. Think about it, wierwilles actions read right down the line of every fruit that is listed as that of a man of the flesh in galatians 5....you can go right down the line and check off darned near every behavior mentioned like a check list. How in the world could we believe anything spiritual taught from a man of the flesh or his doctrines?? Everything is suspect including his take interpretation of the new birth and incorruptible seed, imo I don`t think that we need to even guess...we are given very clear guidelines in the scriptures to identify a person. In the scriptures, that Jesus told us that we would *recognize* one another by the fruit of the spirit. That always said to me...that there must be something more to the spiritual walk than slapping a label and proclaiming one to be a christian...shrug...apparently, we needed a guide to know what was really inside a person, because we danged sure couldn`t tell by what they said or the works that they displayed. Tie that together with galatians which says uncatagorically that those who did what wierwille and his buddies did, will have absolutely no inheritance in the kingdom of God....I have to suspect the whole notion of wierwille being in heaven, simply because he recited a couple of verses...as questionable. The scriptures do discuss false prophets...those are guys that pretend to be prophets...I imagine that means that they speak scripture and act like prophets well enough to fool people.....I dunno...looking at wierwille`s life, looking at the fruit displayed, looking at all of the harm that he personally inflicted, at the people his ministry and doctrine wounded...at the deaths caused by adherance to his teachings....I`d place him in that catagory. This just doesn`t happen in genuine christian groups and lives. Having met genuine christians outside of the influence of twi, I`d have to say that the contrasts are pretty stark.

SURE I have oldies, many times....you just chose to ignore what galatians 5 so clearly clearly states. There are fruit listed manifested by a man of the flesh, there are fruit listed that are manifested by a man of the spirit. The lists are precise and clear. All sin, all seem to have works, some good some bad... but all sin and all works are not necessarily fruit either way.

It STILL suprises me the venom that is directed against the people who merely TALK about the evil acts committed in twi, yet at the same time those so outraged, wanting to nominate the perpetrators of these crimes for saint hood. Geemany, you gotta wonder where folks heads are at :(

Don`t believe it Dooj, you just didn`t fall into the little verbal snare he was attempting to bait and lead you into :)