rascal

Absolutely Waysider. Throw in...don`t do what so and so did or you TOO will become m&a worthless...salt that has lost it`s savor...worthless....fit only to be cast to the streets and trodden under the feet of the beast.... If you do thus, you will die spiritually....If you talk to this m&a person you too might become possessed....you might just as well kill yourself if you leave the ministry and get possessed because you will lose all of your rewards at the bema.... Obey leadership and see a miracle or look at 5 senses and sink like peter did.....don`t let your thoughts trick you into considering like eve did.... Damned right it is mind control...you do as we say or you will die :(

(((Watered Garden))) Thank you for putting into words what I am struggling to convey. I am so very very sorry for what they put you guys through. All we wanted to do was serve God and fellowship with believers...and they took even THAT away from us. Gosh.....normal groups religious or otherwise, just don`t assume control of a persons life that way. Healthy adults simply do not submit to abuse and obey orders that are destructive to ones self and contrary to what is in ones own personal best interest. Healthy thinking adults don`t believe that they will sicken and die if forced to leave a group :( Since leaving twi, none of us seem to have a problem charting our courses, making our decisions, standing up when treated unfairly, and leaving any given activity when we chose. Same people ... completely different behavior in and out of twi...why the extremes in behavior?

Guess that there is more going on then what you have read George, it kind of spans a couple of threads.... Oldies contends that we could have walked away at any time... that twi was no worse than any other religious group to leave from, therefor no harm no foul...it was our own stupidity that kept us there. He also maintains that those of us who now are outraged with our treatment, with the behavior of leadership as promoting a victim mentality mindset. He also accused us of wanting no more than to simply blame our own lifes mistakes on someone else. I challenge that notion, for the reasons listed in my opening post. Oldies persists on making this thread and my position something that it is not, on redefining the issues and premiss in order to steer away from the unsettling answers to the questions posed in my opening post.

That isn`t what I alleged at all oldies. Please don`t pin that on ME and then attack me on what YOU say that my position is, it is incorrect at best, dishonest at worst. Your attempt to portray twi as harmless, and we that we had the ability to refuse and leave seems to be what is contrary to the facts as have been presented. Your allegation that we simply want to indulge in a pity party, that we want to promote victim mentality, seems to be mistaken.... If I were a psychotic liar, if I was simply looking for someone to blame my poor lifes choices on...I would be targeting a much wider spetrum of people and activities... There is only one group that has enforced their will upon me, where I felt there was no other choice than to obey. I have had no trouble standing up for myself before or since. What makes twi so sinisterly different?

well..I suppose you could twist it to appear that was what I was saying. Twi leaders indulged in unbridled evil, they taught a doctrine that permitted this and then encouraged their leaders to embrace a lifestyle of cruelty and abuse...vpw taught them how to steal, kill, and destroy ...from those whom they had charge of...using scriptural gymnatics to enforce their sick sick orders, and also as an excuse for the damage wrought...and yet some how, if you can look at another group...point your finger and inflate some numbers...some how you can be ok with twi.

OK, a show of hands...out of how many greasespotters participating in this thread... How many of us have personally participated in groups where those in charge drugged and raped teenaged women?? coerced young women into sexual servitude?? threw members who refused to participate out and then had the excommunicated so that no one could talk to them?? Had members committing suicide when injured and thrown out...when their wives wouldn`t leave the mogs service??? How many had rampant adultery and alcoholism, those in charge permitted to rage and scream at the members while the members were required to submit mutely?? How many people have been in groups where submition of finances was mandatory, who you lived with and where was dictated...your scheduals submitted in 15 miniute incriments including intimacy with spouse??? How many of us here hacve ever participated in a group where we were told that our lives were forfiet if we were to leave...that if we didn`t obey to the minutest detail every edict we would be forced out??? How many of us have been dictated to by anybody that they must leave their spouse...throw their kids out...abandon family...abort our children??? How many of us are having nightmares decades later from any other group than twi?? I`m telling you...I think there is a reason that we are still impacted today. It isn`t becasue we are mentally weak, or mentally ill, or indulging in victim mentality propaganda....else we would have these same problems with EVERY activity and group that we chose to participate in.

I don`t think ANYBODY can dwarf twi in the evil department....apparently there were a LOT of things you missed in twi besides the teachings that enabled evil to run rampant and unchecked. I think that you need to believe that this is normal. It isn`t, but because you can point to isolated instances in organizations that involve billions of people through centuries of existence....and claim that it isn`t just twi...it seems to make you feel a little better about ignoring the implications of the evil men that tormented people in our group.

Oldies,is what you do not exactly the same?? Defend the indefensible?? I personally think that twi`s doctrine, of your saved and you can do anything you damned well please to anyone ....odbedience to the mog = obediance to God...the mog is the king....is more damaging than anything ever practiced in the rc church. I`m just saying that there isn`t ANYBODY who can out do twi as far as damaging doctrine...or doctrine that allows evil and abuse to flourish.

(((Watered Garden)))) Gosh me too. I never believed the stories either. We wanted to believe these guys, wanted to believe that they were who and what they said they were. We wanted desperately to be those men and women who changed the world for the better. Who would ever dream that their hearts and motives were not as pure and idealistic as our own?? I remember a poster...I think cookie might have been the name that posted here for a short time...claimed that the girls wanted it, liked to feel special...wanted to be with the mog....only now they just want to complain. I am 46 years old ... almost 2 n a half times the age I was then.....and all I can say is that even today would be ...ICK!!! Yet these guys were able to convince folks that it was an honor, their spiritual long suit and ministry, to where some still feel that way two decades later.

I know that for nearly 5 years after I left, that I tightly controlled my thinking. I didn`t want to prove them right, that I would be posessed when I left...that I would think evil, or speak a negative. I didn`t dare deviate a hair from the teachings and instructions .... I still arose in prayer and read scriptures, I looked for areas to tithe, I witnessed as best I could...in short all of the habit patterns developed in twi. I waited nearly 5 long years for the other shoe to drop and for satan to take my family out :( In hind sight, that stikes me as powerful indoctrination. Abby, I think that you are correct. I also don`t think people who describe twi as the *norm* have honestly ever spent much time involved with any other group. Oh well ...if vp said the churches are just spiritually empty...they must be really bad....no matter WHAT they did...well it couldn`t be as bad as those churches. The thing is...folks stay away and assume that what they have is superior.

Watered Garden, isn`t it really strange how they managed to get us to turn off our internal alarms?? I mean, you would know that something wasn`t right...you would feel it in the very depths of your bones...but to consider it would be...*thinking evil*.... we always assumed that it was our error in understanding....that we must put all questions on a back burner until we were spiritual enough to understand it. You are darned right that was inappropriate.....I can see how completely naieve we were. My daughter is the age that we were then...so young and bright...so willing to please...the thought of these dirty old men manuvering naieve, trusting young girls into this position...makes my blood boil.

My my what a selective memory you have dove...I know you have been around here long enough to have read about the abuses swept under the carpet, the victims silenced *lest the ministry be blamed* I DO remember way leadership condoning child sexual abuse. Two cases....come to mind readily...one was The Creep in Alaska who after being moved from limb to limb upon discovery, one position of leadership to the next.... parents of abused children told to let the ministry handle it *in house* to not take it to law enforcement...only to find out that he was simply moved to another state and placed once again in charge of families and children....he just got out of prison a couple of years ago...Steve something He didn`t go to jail until an outsider caught and turned him in...I think he served 5 or 6 years... Then there was the fellow that worked at hq for a while....twi united behind him and excoriated the wife for turning HIM in for sexually abusing his daughter.....he went to prison as well. Mark something.. In BOTH cases, the people whom turned them in...the people who were willing to bear witness were the ones attacked, bullied, even threatened in an attempt to secure their cooperation and silence.... The bot knew and condoned, even facilitated the illegal activities of lcm.... Those are all documented and verifiable from newspapers. As far as what was hidden.... I was told of a rape that went unreported because the limb c convinced the girl that to do so would make the ministry look bad... Look at what leadership covered up for with vpw....We know that they knew about the drugging and rape. We know that they knew that young girls were being groomed for sexual service .. the knew about the adulter and alcoholism.. To intimate that immoral illegal activities were not condoned, facilitated and covered up, that illegal, immoral activities not only practiced but taught as necessary in order to be a great leader.....would be dishonest. The trail of broken lives, of people thrown out and m&a `d to silence what they knew is staggering. You have read here first hand accounts from the father AND the sister, as well as the then 17 yr old victim herself what vpw did when she refused his sexual overtures...what he did to her reputation...how he lied so that they would never believe her...how the father was pressured to throw this posessed thing out of his house or face the consecquences... Cover up??? Darned right....and for our numbers statistically??? I`ll bet we far out strip any group for criminal abuse swept under the carpet.

Jeast and Jeff, I understand how troubling these accusations are. I know that you haven`t been here long enough to know who is speaking of what, but please suffice it to say that there are many many accounts of the atrocities of which I speak. In the cases that I speak of, if I wasn`t a direct participant, I know personally at least one person that endured these abuses. Sure, I am nobody that you would know or trust per say....but would you believe the words of leadership that saw it personally in the past? There has been more than one that has admitted to the drugging and rape, the forced abortions, the adultery and alcohol issues. There is more than one sight where people have finally been brace enough to come forth and share what happened. There have been multiple first hand accounts of these atrocities....and in each of the instances that I listed, in addition to my own personal testimoney...I know at least one person whom has come forward. That these things happened is no longer in doubt. What these signify in the life of our leaders...is what we now question. Were they good guys who slipped up and went bad, or were they simply deceivers from the start?

Because if you DON`T speak up Mark, they will have silenced a voice of reason :(

Your only defense is to point at someone else and whine ....*well they did it too*? Well gangs, pimps, drug dealers, pedophiles, murderers or any other low life scum that you care to name steal kill and destroy. The difference between them and wierwille, koreche, jones, moon, and such is that they take, they take in God`s name. That is why they have power. We could and normally WOULD stand up and put a fist in the mouth of the guy screaming inches from your face with flecks of spittle hitting you....ignore a persons demand for your pay check, use of your home and facilities, required your services 5 days a week..sell your home and car to get out of debt...you`d tell someone to go straight hell if they required you to leave your spouse....throw your unruly teen out...turn your back on family...you`d tell them to go f-ck themselves if they required that you abort your child.... What we couldn`t do...was say *no* to God when these guys said that was what HE required.... They took what THEY wanted in GOD`S name...I think that is an outrage.

Obviously you don`t have an understanding of control and abuse. Maybe it is baloney to you, but very relevant and important to recognize the manipulation, the control. It helps to understand myself and the mindset that made us vulnerable to such abuse....it helps to recognize it so that it never happens again. Like I said, I have lived a full adventurous life....before and qafter twi....there have been many blows, many dissapointments, many, many mistakes made.....yet the ONLY time that I have felt that I was abused, or controlled, or manipulated was during the decade of twi. If what you say is true...that I am a perpetually whining victim, if it were all my fault because of mental defect...wouldn`t I be whining about EVERYTHING that was a dissapointment in my life? Wouldn`t I be making excuses for all of the poor choices that I have made?? Blaming parents, upbringing, marriage, peers... I am the same woman....Experiences before and after twi......yet there is only one group, one time frame in which I feel toxic, dishonest, manipulative, and controlling...only one group I consider to be dangerous ...that utilizes mind control.... It doesn`t make any sense. Wouldn`t I be blaming a lot more people for my poor choices if I was simply wanting to dodge responsibility? I have been taken advantage of, I have made poor choices, I have been decieved both before and since twi...WHY would I not suck it up, square my shoulders and battle on...as with all of the rest of lifes experiences??? In my mind it is because what was taken, what was demanded ...was stolen in GOD`S name...when he had nothing to do with what was being required. It was men using the the authority as God`s representatives to steal that which was not theirs, and using scriptures to justify and excuse their abuses:( I would be blaming a lot more people for my poor choices if I was simply wanting to dodge responsibility.

Not if you were the one being raped, or your brother or sister that died, not if it was your family destroyed, not if it were your children that were sexually and physically abused, or it was you whom were banished, excommunicated to become possessed and die

Copenhagen, all very valid points to consider. I have to wonder what it was in twi doctrine that made it possible for it all to go so horribly wrong. How could such supposedly wonderful christians become cruel and abusive, in spite of their most earnest efforts to be of the *spirit* You couldn`t find a group more dedicated top prayer, believing, tithing, witnessing studying...in short all of the things supposed top make us so spiritual ....but didn`t help us to avoid the snare. You have to consider there is something seriously missing from the equations that prevented us from being the men and women that we envisioned ourselves as :( ((((Jeff))) It is always a pleasure. Thanks for your thoughts. It sounds as if the splinter group, the cruel destruction of your family, the heartless treatment from the people whom were to guide and councel. It sounds like they still are missing a vital ingredient in the spiritual formula.

I think that says it all for me :( How many regular churches dictate where you live, what your job requirements are, your housing, require you to show your pay stubs and investigate your finances, require you to go two by two. How many churches tell you that God requires you to turn your back on your family, God requires that you leave your spouse, God requires you to abort your child, God wants you to service the man of God... How many of us did these things ... not because WE wanted to.....not because God really required us too...not because it benefited us personally...but because some twi leader got a wild hair up his bu tt??

I have yet to hear of another reputable *religious group* that has left the swath of death and destruction our ministry has through peoples lives. The only ones that come close are the cults.... I don`t see involvement with other groups that lead to the long term difficulties we face. My point was....that there is something more intense, something deeply sinister that made us feel it was necessary to submit to the abuse, that convinced us that it was necessary and acceptable...it was for our own good......something that caused us to shut down our reasoning ability ...those inner alarm bells, that blurred those boundary lines....that prevented us from fleeing when subjected to the atrocities :(

I am following the theme of this thread..ie forgivness. It seems to me that your point is in trying to get corinthians to support your position by claiming that it can be twisted into lending legitimacy to your argument. I don`t care to address that since everything you do is a pfal infomercial anyway...what I CAN address is your lack of understanding in regards to my post and position, I have corrected the perception..please feel free to apologize now, unless the misleading was deliberate.

Exactly wateredgarden...that is exactly how it is supposed to work...and yet we were told that any churches outside of twi were not any good...so many of us still have this implanted idea that...they are you know...part of the body...but kind of like retarded bretheren that must be tolerated for their stupidity. It is a disservice to the genuin christians, the men and women who live as spiritual beings.... Yet when we talk here about what happened in twi....it never fails that someone turns up and says...your a liar, or that didn`t happen often, or you are making a big deal out of it or that happens everywhere...you didn`t have to put up with it, there were no guns held to your head...always the attempt to minimalize..or someho make what happened seem acceptible. ....or as in the case of what started me on this thread....we are indulging in victim mentality propaganda. There is an ongoing attempt to blame us for what happened...you should have walked if you didn`t like it...you didn`t have a weapon to your head....and lately...well all the other religious groups are just like this....

That is what MIKE said that I said....that makes you either mistaken or a liar...which is it? What else are you mistaken about friend? I don`t recall Jesus telling Satan ...*I forgive you* when he manipulated the scriptures to try to trick him.... What`d he tell him?? What should we tell the fellow who is still trying to usescriptures to tell the same lies to lure us away?

Mike his written versions are as much crap as his verbal versions. The written versions weren`t even written BY him, as one of his editors has told you. I am sorry that you must ignore those whom knew and wrote for him...

If we were hungry and IF we were presented with an appetizing fish and IF we consumed the fish, but later found the fish to be poisoned, that we were sickened, if some of our family died after consumption of the fish.... IF we found out upon investigation that the fish so freely given was knowingly contaminated...that those serving the fish knew that it was spoiled, but served it anyway ...we would then have cause to complain. It would not be propaganda to warn, to relate the incident. There is a massive recall of fish as we speak because of contamination. I for one am glad when people chose too speak up.