rascal

Thanks Penworks, I am sorry to have made you ill :( I want you to know though...all of this was done in the most loving and kind manner...at the time, I felt like these guys were being incredibly kind in helping me to make the right choices. The person who *counceled* me was simply using the verses and persuasions that had been used on them. It was horrible, I hated it, the second appointment...I fiercely ran retemories through my mind so that I wouldn`t get tricked into leaving again. It was like I was screaming on the inside...but I had to do something to block it all out. I didn`t dare be a coward, I didn`t dare disspapoint my leaders again. I was treated like a right little hero for such demonstrated commitment ... like some kind of battle scarred veteran...I shut down all of my feelings and emotions for years about the whole thing...making myself beliieve what they had told me. It was only many years later, after having children that I had realized I no longer believed what I was taught.

I don`t know highway, I only know that I had left to have the baby, that I was asked to return to the limb to take care of a few loose ends. My bc picked me up and took me. Twinky, thanks it gets worse... There was a whole doctrine used...I call it doctrine because people have told me that the same reasoning and verses were used on them. I was told that I had made a vow to God...if I did not finish my commitment on the wow field and enter the corpes in the fall I would have broken that vow...I would have lied to God. It was then pointed out what happened to people who lied to God...annanias and saphira were trotted out. How God didn`t see it as murder because old testament punishment for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* was different than murder.... It was pointed out that I shouldn`t let a group of cells.....not alive till first breath paracite ... not a real baby and to break my commitment to God for that was unthinkable...all complete with verses presented that appeared to support this ..... The sin was not in having sex, because all things were lawful to them which were in Christ...but only in allowing it to prevent me from honoring my promise. I was told that many people in the corpes big names had found themselves in this situation and not to be ashamed... Feeling that I had no choice, that I didn`t think thatl I could live life without God....I agreed. Get this.....The limb co knew where to go and even made the appointment for me. My bc picked me up and drove me me to the appt in the city where the limb was....and stayed with me...I fled the office the first time and was taken back to the lc...I was talked to some more ... a new appt was made.... I don`t want to argue abortion right or wrong either...I just think it was incredibly cruel to have to feel like I needed to chose between God and the child.

It may not make sense to you Todd, but that doesn`t negate the value of the discussion here. In understanding the spiritually putrid nature of that in which we were involved....we are freed from the mental bonds that kept us in that dark little box of twi thinking. We become free to begin learning and growing, blossoming once we discard the narrow minded arrogance aquired and sustained by twi doctrine. A FREAKIN men OCW!

Who in the hell are YOU mike to decide that our personal experiences...are FISH stories?? That we have embellished after 25 years? Just because it wasn`t your experience, does NOT give you the right to call us liars. I know, I know, in order for you to believe your own schpiel...you have tobelieve that the rest of us are liars...but I`ll be darned if I will sit by and let you tell OTHER people that we are liars. You make ASSUMPTIONS about the man you WISH Vp`d been and present them as facts...you build a whole theological system around your illusion...and THEN try to negate all of the personal experiences of the many many posters here who saw evidence to the contrary by intimating that those with personal knowledge are lying or exaggerating. I`ll bet that if it was your life destroyed by cruel treatment, or YOU had been drugged and raped...at the hands of vpw personally, or those whom he taught and mentored...if YOU had been his victim and then further victimized by cover up and accusations......you damned well would feel like it had more significance than a *fish story. You are really heartless, brother. Neo...for what it is worth many many here speak from personal first hand knowledge. Does it matter that top leaders have come forward publicly and confirmed not only the alcoholism and rampant adultery, but the the drugging and rape of our innocent sisters? You have leadership saying it happened, you have the women whom have come forth and said hay...it happened to me..... On the other hand, you have people with admitted limited access to vpw .....they weren`t in the corpes, they didn`t live at hq....yet they speak with seeming authority concerning vpw and his *nature*. Are you going to believe the people that actually met and interacted with vpw, the people who viewed up close and personal his nasty little secrets....or the people who simply saw his public persona and bought into the image that he polished in order to appear acceptable??

Forgive me if this was mentioned before...but isn`t *toughening up* another word for hardening? I mean if you toughen up your fingers playing guitar...eventually you form callouses so that you don`t feel the strings. In this supposed toughening....were we not hardened...hardened so that the real feelings of compassion, kindness, patience, charity... Were not the callouses so thick that they acted as a barrier between us and real emotions, maybe even the very voice of God trying to call us to reason?

I don`t know neo, I have 3 syblings, syblings, parents, ghrandparents, extended family of aunts and uncles that didn`t get involved in twi they all ended up fine. I have to think that I would have been also. I tend to think that God is a lot bigger than twi and if he wanted to find us, or we him...it could have been managed. How about the question,,,how many of us would be in much better chape if we had never even heard of Vic wierwille and twi?

Twinky, when I was on the wow field and app corpes, I became pregnant. I left the field and withdrew from the program in shame, assuming of course that I was ineligible to continue. I was found a couple of weeks later by the bc. I was asked to come to the limb to tie up a few loose ends. Once there I was given the *you made a vow to God* lecture. That the sin wasn`t in getting pregnant...but if I allowed this little collection of cells to prevent me from keeping my promise to God. I was told that if the guy wouldn`t pay for it...the limb would. Edited to add...this was not a leadership concieved child, but did pertain to the cost question.

Funny thing about the *boot camp* reference. The guy that made it inadvertantly proved our point. Not being military, I don`t believe that they understand that boot camp is not just about toughening up. Anybody who has had military experience (no I haven`t ..but this is what my father and brother have told me) understands why boot camp is so intense...and mind you it only last a couple of months...not a life time...why they do the things the way they do. As I understand it ...the recruits are worked into the ground, they are subjected to sleep deprivation, intense physical exercise, nearly constant haranguing. They are never right, they are always kept off balance runs and drills at any hour...they are physically exhausted, ...etc. The goal is to completely tear each of them as an individual down...to eliminate their personal identity...after they have been brought as low as possible...the building up process begins...they are then encouraged, pushed to succede...become one, a unit...they feel united, strong, their mutual suffering, the intensity of the things experienced bonds them together as a family so to speak...they no longer think as individuals but trheir identity becomes that of the group...they have a whole new identity and thought process when the event is completed. Seems to me that in twi...the tearing down process never stopped, that instead of the tearing down and building up in a few weeks...it was 4 years of harshness... It seems to me that coprs was a matter of survival. Boot camp was not about building physical toughness :(

NO I didn`t know that the programs were to toughen us up :( I went wow because I was told THAT was how to best serve God...how to be on the front lines spiritually...how to grow ten years spiritually in one... I applied to go into the corpes because I was told that NOT to was to be a *bump on the log spiritually* So in answere to # 1 ...I`d have to say no, I had no idea what I was committing myself to, nor the fact that in applying, I was making an irrevvocable, unbreakable vow I was making to God. In answere to #2...I` don`t believe that I was weak...I think I was decieved into allowing myself to be treated the way I was, believing that God required my submition and obediance to these men. In answere to question #3 no doubt that is exactly what they thought we should do....*lock box*...silence, *lest the ministry be blamed* etc...I believe that it is ou moral, spiritual civic responsibility to expose ALL of the dirt that has been swept under the carpet. To do anything less is to allow evil to run unchecked.

Lesson learned?? I`d say it had something to do with David repenting once he had realized via an intervention from God....the magnitude of his sin....apparently, God needed David to do something more than live with his sorry self after having slept with bathsheba, and killing uriah.... David needed to be sorry AND repent AND suffer the consequences of his actions...it was important enough for God himself to intervene... How is that even REMOTELY similar to a man of the flesh who embraced evil, who taught others to do also...who went to his grave never having expressed sorrow OR repentance to those whom he had wronged?

*men we knew to be*? Whats that in your opinion....little zombie robots parroting the teachings of an evil man of the flesh?

Does anybody in hind sight, think they can see instances of the keys to the cell door being offered? Somebody standing outside of the door beckoning us out into freedom, sunshine and fresh air?? Figuratively speaking I can, I remember bracing against the door way and resistying with all of my strength....terrified that outside those door lay death and destruction as promised in our teachings. Not only did we not feel that we were free, we actively fought to remain in our dark dank little holes :(

I know that my friends felt that they had *no way oout* when the lc decided that their teenaged daughter wasn`t respectfull enough to him. They were to throw her to the streets ...when they were reluctant....they were told either do it or the whole family would be m&a d. M&A meant that you were separated from the house hold, from God`s blessing and protection, vulnerable to become possessed, taken out...a grease spot by midnight. They had three other children who`s lives and safety that had to be considered .... yes...they felt that they had no way out, and cast their precious daughter out of her home and away from her family :(

I think that this otherwise excellent thread has been dragged far enough off course :( Polar bear, I do indeed remember the teachings that kept me in twi. There was nothing but death waiting for me outside. I know that to disobey leadership meant that I was saying no to God...that God would bless me EVEN if they were wrong...he would honor my heart...that I couldn`t be like peter and look at the negative 5 senses stuff or I`d sink... I remember feeling so trapped...not knowing that in corpes application that I was entering a contract...irrevocable...that if I didn`t fullfil my commitment I would die like annanias and saphira for lying to God.... I remember how broken I was when I was required to chose to abort the child that would prevent my entrance into residence....... I remember how hopeless it all was...that it was either the childs life or live a life however short without God :( Polar bear, Yes I did feel like an animal in a cage, hopeless, without a choice....No there were no bars on our cages, no walls in our prison, no weapons held to our head....but yet I did feel like an animal trapped.

Who was disparaged? I think wolf has a valid point...Who knows where these legitimate christians and thier vibrant ministries would have gone had they not been wrestled off track by the deceiver wierwille? Sure we THOUGHT we were serving God...but our efforts went to sate the sick lusts of wierwille...our tithe bought toys for an immoral man, supported his immoral habits and paid for his immoral mistakes hush money, abortions etc..our witnessing brought young women to his lair to be abused, families were placed under his influence to be torn asunder, children put under the power of pedophiles and abusers....sure we all THOUGHT we were serving God, sure we were selfless in our efforts...but look who the heck was actually served...look at the *fruit* the broken lives, the misery, the actual death...that is a pretty ugly thing to lay at the feet of God. That is why deception is CALLED deception...DUH We are deceived into doing what someone ELSE wants CONTRARY to our own bests interests :(

Well, it was my hope that you would play the part of a gentleman, and purported brother and cease these dishonest tactics, without me having to whine to the moderators. Your lack of integrity in refusing to post the entire quote in context, in a deliberate attempt to misrepresent myself and my position has been pointed out to you. Please desist. LMAO wolf :)

Lol TBone...sign ME up for the next class :)

Great point mstar....I have often thought in disgust what MIGHT have been accomplished had our youthful energy, our boundless enthusiasm, our selfless giving of years even decades of our lives, our time, our resources, hundreds of millions of dollars in money, billions of hours of prayer.... had all of this been focused in a legitimate direction that could have done some actual good in the world :(

Oh Thank you Word Wolf... Thank you for the psalm 14:1 reference...that describes exactly what is going on. I am not sure, but I think following a poster from thread to thread, simply pasting comments taken out of context might be considered stalking..

OCW....Would you believe that I LIVED that book? Yeah, I knew Karl....and believe it or not, when I read the book, I told him how offended I was...lol ...that I didn`t think that we were as cynical as he had portrayed....LITTLE did I know ... Karl, wherever you are...I owe you an apology :)

and your point oldies IS??? I don`t blame a dog for being rabid either, I don`t blame a cat that grabbed my sons 300 dollar finch out of the cage, I don`t blame the colt that kicks out playfully and inadvertently hurts me...it is the nature of the beast.....by the same token I don`t blame twi for being a mind sucking, opportunity eating, people destroying, sexually abusive, child abusing, baby murdering, exploitive, manipulative, dishonest, spiritually putrid CULT!!! That is just what happens when you have men of the flesh, false prophets, ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour seducing and decieving people into the snare carefully disguised with bible verses and pretty trappings :( I would imagine that is why God so strenuously warns us to be wary, gives us explicit instructions in how to identify one another, and dire warnings of the consequences of becoming ensnared by these deceivers. My responsibility in these situation is to shoot the dog, protect the finch, be wary, and never talk my eyes off of the colt...AND shout from the roof tops the dangers of involvement of the cult of twi!

Oh man...you aren`t kidding!! My kids are the age I was when I became involved...oh my goodness...to think of my wonderfull kiddoes subjected to the manipulation, the exploitation, the cruelty ...oh my. You know?? I have 3 syblings that didn`t get involved in twi. I look at their lives, I look at what they have accomplished, in short I see where I would have been had I not been side tracked for a decade and another in recovering myself. I see that the word taught like it has never been taught since the first century...didn`t help me to become any better a person, as a matter of fact it took me a lot longer to learn to be kind, compassionate, non judgemental. TWI sucked our lives, our youth, our finances, and our opportunities away...at 35 we wake up and realize that we have squat to show for all of those years of diligent service.

Mark, you have far more credibility than your attackers. I wish that you wouldn`t go.

I repeat, please when quoting me, use my quotes in their entirety rather than pulling a partial sentence out of context to support your premiss. I don`t blame twi for anything. I do indeed believe that there was deliberate control, manipulation, and deceit used to enforce continued participation, cooperation from the followers. I believe that we were controlled. There is no other explanation I can think of that would cause grown, otherwise healthy adults to submit to the abuse.

Please use my quotes in their entirety rather than taking one partially out of context in order to change their meaning and support your premiss. It isn`t an honest representation of myself or my position. Ham, you are correct, that is the way churches and groups professing to be christian operate. Twi had a whole system in place to justify why they didn`t need to obey even the most basic tenants of the christian faith.