rascal

...and you ARE free to disagree Oldies...I am just pointing out, as you so often have to me, that YOU certainly are not able to speak with authority for all of us, that many of us certainly did not experience your idyllic conditions in twi. That many of us found out only after the fact, when we needed to leave.... that we had made an irrevocable, unbreakable vow to God. My experience is in complete contradiction to your statement. And finally....I have NOT named any names friend. You yourself told us that you had family in twi, and that your experiences were different...ok?

Groucho, you described how it was for me. Corpes was to learn how to best serve God, how to be the best tc that I could be. I remember the promo I went to at roa. Craig arrogantly stated that he didn`t even hang out or talk to non corpes because of their lack of spirituality. I remember applying for a 4 year program that would help me be my very best for God. It was only when I tried to leave that I found out that I had made an unbreakable vow to God :(

[quote name='oldiesman' date='Mar 19 2008, 09:56 AM' post='403000 But the bottom line is we had free will to choose what we desired to do, persuasive people notwithstanding. As you have so often reminded me oldies...please speak for yourself and the unique circumstances of your family. That is not an accurate portrayal of what the many of the rest of us endured.

Beautiful posts Mark C and Bliss. Just a beautiful way to state it. Assumed position it seems to me led to an arrogance that really led us off track. Some never recover.

Highway, I remember being at some big event. I think that it had to be a roa or something years after the fact when they told the story of Howard allens healing...it was told start to finish....vp talked, but so did some others. They said at that time it was herpes simplex 3. It was years after the fact, but they did say in a big public setting. Highway, I remember being at some big event. I think that it had to be a roa or something years after the fact when they told the story of Howard allens healing...it was told start to finish....vp talked, but so did some others. They said at that time it was herpes simplex 3. It was years after the fact, but they did say in a big public setting.

Well See, for me...what angers me is being told that GOD required this of me. I understand not being able to participate in the wow program or corpes program further. I understand the lost opportunities...etc. But to be told that God required this because I had made a vow that couldn`t be broken. That I could not live in the center of his will and keep the child... I could and did withdraw from the corpes and wow field...I could have said *no* to any man...what I couldn`t say no to..what I couldn`t live with out is God. Twinky...this is indeed painful for many...but it is good too...we find out that it wasn`t just *us* it isn`t that dark dirty little secret that we are ashamed of...that we are afraid someone will find out about...it doesn`t live in the back of our subconscious gnawing away like some little rat.... We take it out...we look at it in the light of day and we deal with it. What is tough, and I think this is what wolf is talking about it when we are suffering through this...the one or two that insist on rewriting the history, attacking a persons credibility, claiming that we are indulging in perpetual victim hood...claiming that there was no gun held to our heads and that we could have left at any time :( That is what is painful, like salt in an open wound...when you have to defend yourself from attack for speaking up..while examining these memories.

I don`t think that it occured to many of us to seek legal recourse. We were taught that there was a higher law than *man`s* law... We weren`t to take a believer to court...we weren`t to doubt our leaders..that was the first step down, like eve....we needed to obey, or we were stiff necked....anything that encumbered us from moving the word ...yes even that child was a trick of satan, a deception to get us to cop out on our responsibility to God. For me, it was a decade later before I realized that I didn`t believe twi`s *first breath* teaching nor any of the other scriptures that were used to enforce the decision. It wasn`t until nearly 20 years after the fact that I realized that mine wasn`t an isolated occurance. A single leader that was out of bounds :( Just like most of the abuse that happened in twi...I think the statute of limitations on such things had long since run out. I agree, it was very sick, it was heartbreaking, it was horrible to have to do that in the name of duty owed to God. That is what haunts me.

Wasn`t 6 *sick*?

Ham, I think that you have just nailed why people can at times be so vigorous in their defense of twi and vpw... even to the point of being downright viscious. It appears that it is so vital that they be *right*.. .that it is nothing to treat a brother or sister savagely, to accuse them of being liars, or exaggerators, to accuse them of being weak. or wanting it, or simply indulging in hystrionics or eternal victim hood...Anything to preserve our belief of what we invested our lives into. Some how one must completely negate, or distort the more unseemly practices and doctrines, some how diminish the damage, the magnitude of suffering...to cast doubts on the veracity of those who`s experience that contradict what we want to believe in order to preserve the image we wish to hold.

Nicely said cman. Greg, I am unsure if you can handle honest, frank discussion. Romans we are all very aware of, the veracity of the scripture is not being challenged....However....Are you interested in the truth about twi?? That is what we do discuss here....Do you really want to know if VPW indeed threw people off grounds...out of the wow program...etc....and why if it was really justified....or would you rather continue making assumptions??? People here can personally relate to you their experiences....You could then decide with all of the information present if it really was the right thing to do...or if there were some flaws in vp`s character or judgement....You might be able to learn a few things from people whom actually lived and worked in twi shoulder to shoulder with vpw, lcm, etc at hq. Maybe their insight as to the inner workings of the ministry could help you understand whether or not they would ever consider listening to your view point. You have people here who can fill in the gaps of your knowledge. Their is a wealth of knowledge...the only question is...do you want to avail yourself of this resource? Do you want to know who and what vpw was like in real life?..what working at hq was like? what their current policies are? It`s all here...you can know the truth. To date, I have not seen where ck would hear the truth. ....it seemed to me he wanted a place to rant. That is what is here..though....the good, the bad, the ugly of twi...we are each free to tell the story ...OUR side of the story...what ever it may have been for each individual....for ck to come along and actively try to prevent folks from talking about the side that he doesn`t want to hear about...to try to negate another participants input is not in keeping with the purpose of this place. Truth is here, don`t you need all of the information, not just what people want you to see in order to form accurate opinions and understanding? As far as the moderators and pawtucket??? You are attacking the wrong guys...The rules here are very simple...basic common courtesy. They wrok pretty darned hard to make sure that everyone has a voice, and I really appreciate that.

All I know Dooj, is that it sucked being abused and mistreated. It sucked that my brothers lost their lives. It sucked that my sisters were drugged and raped, and my friends families destroyed. I won`t lay that at God`s feet or as part of his plan for our lives :( Be that as it may george, The issue here was in countering a claim made by a poster that twi wasn`t any harder to leave than any other religious group. That any who stayed and were abused, were there because they liked it or were feeble minded. Those who object to the treatment are simply indulging in victim mindset propaganda. In THAT context...THIS thread I am discussing that IF the above statement were true....if twi were as harmless and innocuous as the little methodist church down the road...if we didn`t leave because we were weak and stupid....most of us would have displayed these traits with the many other groups that we were involved with before and since. I have yet to have anyone tell me that to not behave as they dictate that I will be seperated from God. I have yet to have anyone dictate to me where I lived, who I lived with, where I worked, investigated my finances, insisted that I travel 2x2, abort my children, service the man of God, participate in dangerous activities....all as requirements to remain in the center of God`s will and under his protection. I have had no problem leaving toxic people and groups before and after twi. I have had no trouble standing up for myself and family and say *no* when being required to do something that was not in our best interests. The poster was intimating that twi was harmless, it was our fault if we were mistreated. I don`t agree with that for the above reasons.

Maybe I am just not understanding what you are saying Todd. I am trying, If I am wrong maybe you can help me see what I am missing. Maybe I don`t need to because those that are meant to get it will I guess.

Dooj, I don`t know what to tell you. Nobody is calling names here. Nobody is degrading anybody. I don`t think that it will now that stalking and baiting has been eliminated. Todd, I think that what you say may make sense to you...I have difficulty following.....I am kind of simple...I have to think in mind pictures...that is just how my brain works. For what it is worth, I think that God works with each of us in a unique and wonderful way, in whatever capacity we allow him as we travel and grow on this journey. As far as twi being part of my personal journey??? I don`t accept that. I see those guys as being like the false prophets Jesus warned about....these guys lured us off the path, interrupted our progress and lured us into that dark swamp. The robbers that beat up, robbed and left for dead on the side of the road, the poor guy that the good samaritan rescued. I don`t know how you can learn if you die during the experience...which some of us did.... I don`t know how you can learn and grow if the abuse endured destroys your self worth . It was a horrible experience visited upon us by horrible people with selfish motives....Yes, I`ll grant you that God had to work, that we were forced to seek his help to finally claw our way out away from the thick viscuous ooze that was sucking us down........that in learning to lean on him, to accept the life line thrown...we grew and learned some valuable lessons. I am not however, prepared to appreciate the deliberate lure, the snare, the bondage, the anguish suffered as being part of my spiritual journey....If this is part of a Godly plan or design, than I want no part of it, or him....because that would say that in following him, I was led to darkness pain and death, I lost loved ones, our children were abused, our sisters raped...our families torn assunder.

I really think that we are saying the same thing only different ways Todd. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong... But like we are on this journey...we are all at different places in our travels, enjoying different sights, learning different lessons...eventually we all arrive at the same spot, even if we end up branching off on different trails ...we seem to be going in the same general direction. Now....where dooj sees food fights...I see people actively blocking the trail which I wish to travel. They have traveled as far as they intend to go...and are actively trying to dissuade others from going on. Now....as far as twi, and the idea of this thread....I saw a bunch of good hearted people get detoured into a swamp...with promises of a shortcut to our destination....a stinking oozing entrapping mire....some of us have fought our way to solid ground...some of us lost friends and family members to the viscuous filth that sucked away their energy and life....alligators lurked there...feeding on the entrapped...yet ...by God`s grace....some of us...we emerge dirty...weary, exhausted from the fight to free ourselves. We stand on the banks...in sunshine and freedom, safe from the danger...we know what we endured, we know how we struggled, we know that our friends lost their lives.....we try to hand out maps, nail warning signes to the trees directing the unwary from the muck and mire...we help hose the stink and ooze off of one another, bandage and treat one anothers bleeding wounds. You THEN have these yahoos claiming that the swamp wasn`t REALLY a swamp...that we could have left any time that we chose...that it was really no different from any OTHER body of water .... that people frolick in and sail their boats or fish or water ski......that truly only the mentally weak or unstable could not leave... This thread started because of the accusations on the kristin skedgil podcast thread that twi was no worse than any OTHER religious group to leave...that we were simply indulging in victim mentality propaganda. I maintain that this is not true, a lie...for the reasons that I listed.

Thanks Waysider, boy do *I* feel like a dufus :)

((Neo)) you seem like good folks :)

Ham, I think that you are on to something there. I think people don`t want to feel like they were fooled. You base your entire adult life on a belief system, on perceptions ....you don`t want to believe that you are wrong....It is mighty tough to re evaluate a life time of views on ones self and the universe at large.

As far as why lcm? VP once said that the reason he went with *craig* was because he never asked how high when vp told him to *jump*. In hind sight that sounds to me like he was the biggest bu tt kisser.

You know dooj? I think things have improved greatly since baiting, personal attacks and stalking has been cracked down upon. I think that a great amount of information is being put forth and examined. I think people are getting answeres. I don`t know what else you want, but there will probably always be someone who perceives questioning of ideas as personal attacks and respond with nastiness...the challenge is to continue on with the conversation at hand in spite of the disruptions. I don`t understand how you just see that as a food fight and carnage. Maybe there is good being accomplished, points being made, understanding that brings healing that you are unaware of?

Thanks Todd, I will try to understand.

Well that may have been what you asked Twinky...however that does not preclude us from exploring aspects of the topic at hand. I guess that what word wolf says pertains because it is an indication why people wouldn`t be forth coming with information requested because what he has said is true about the treatment of anyone who comes forward with testimony about this. I have been called a liar, a perpetually whining victim, a psychotic liar, and promoting victim mentality....you name it. I don`t think that there are many who will come forth and say yep...me!! I screwed vp, lcm whomever...and twi paid for my abortion... It is a shameful thing...a dirty little secret that you don`t tell anybody...you hide it from yourself even ...There are several people who have come forward, some have pm`d me and told the same story. Many of us can`t forgive ourselves...more than one was physically damaged by the procedure and were never able to have children....I have been asked...*do you think that is punishment for what I did*? I know on the messiah 7 site on marcias story that she had one and didn`t know if it was vp`s or not. In my case...my twi leadership... ....knew enough about abortions to have the clinics addy and phone numbers handy...made the appts etc.. ....knew enough to have a doctrine complete with scriptures to enforce compliance.... ....cared enough to have the ladies escorted.... ....and would have paid if the guy hadn`t ponied up.... I`d say that falls under the catagory of our abs dollars at work.

Bride...I too had the opportunity to meet him once. He was cold, very very cold and aloof. I was terrified that he was discerning something unsavory about me :(

Thanks wing...that is pretty humbling.

You know dooj, In a normal world, you might be right.....but here at greasespot, those fights are started by intolerance of anybodies position other than ones own. I think that it a post cult thing... In order to have no arguments, one person is required to submit and shut up in order to avoid conflict. Sure, things are more peaceful, pleasant, but at what cost? If people hadn`t spoken up...we`d STILL be trying to live according to twi doctrines...spending the REST of our lives trying to live up to an impossible standard as presented by men we thought were holy and spiritual therefor right....instead of realising what totally sick evil bastards they are and how absolutely rediculous their religious beliefs were... There is nothing that some people would love better than for everyone to just shut up and pretend all is hunky dory in the twi world, and that we were God`s spiritual giants :(