rascal

Thank you Sky watcher. That just brings chills. The way you described knowing something was wrong...wanting to leave but controlling your thinking...not wanting to be seen as spiritually immature....your mind is screaming to get out... When it happened to me...not sex, but when I had to do something else terrible in twi...I look back and refer to it as having learned to shut out the very voice of God. I ran scripture retemories fiercly through my mind so that my emotions and desires (ie read common sense here) wouldn`t trick me into copping out :(

What is sick is that in the ministry this behavior ...coldness...lack of feeling was encouraged. As a woman, I was too emotional, that was threatening...Satan could trick us through our emotions....we needed men who were logical who wouldn`t be swayed by emotions to keep us from getting tricked. I saw it in my spouse and what was required of him. I don`t know if being a sociopath can be learned...I know that his father fits the mold...I don`t know if it is the alcoholism that has run in the family for generations....hell I don`t know if alcoholism ISN`T part of it ...they certainly don`t seem to care what their drinking does to those around them...who is destroyed...shrug...maybe there is no correlation. I just know that emotions were regarded as dangerous in twi and they had to be reigned in and tightly controlled. Family ignored, kids a liability to be thrown out if they didn`t measure up... pregnancies that were inconveniences that needed to be terminated... Can a person learn to be a sociopath, or were some of us sociopaths that simply needed the right environment to blossom?

The only ones who want to brand you a liar are the ones who cannot accept the truth of who and what wierwille and twi was. It`s like martindale all over again....they need to make you the one that has something wrong with them so that they don`t have to come to grips with the ominous implications of your testimony.

There are not words to express the contempt and disgust I feel for these morally bankrupt, spiritually depraved monsters that did this to you and so many of my sisters. I can only say how glad I am that you are here now.

You are made of solid steel lady...you withstood what would have crushed and destroyed many of the rest of us. Don`t think that I don`t know it... Many of us just were never in the path of the mog, or not suited to the mogs tastes...or whatever...but many of us who read your posts shudder and think that it very well could have been me. These guys were sick freaks that found a way to make their perversions seem acceptable. They sucked in a lot of people. You have shined a light on their lies....set many of us free from feeling that we had to remain loyal to them or their doctrines. Ex, thankyou for sharing. That took real courage.

That was pretty couragious ex. I don`t believe for an instant that I would have had the courage to speak up or confront the mog. I would have been destroyed. I would have slunk away like the coward that I was.

Damn (((Ex)) he couldn`t counter the truth or heart that you were sharing so he had to manufacture a reason for her to not listen. He had to make you look like the one screwed up. Weren`t they masters at that? They were so good that they made us believe it about ourselves. I believe that what you did, when you did it....was out of a desire to help....not to take. I don`t think that you should doubt yourself or the value of what you share.

It is a cruelty and orneriness that goes beyond ones ability to comprehend :(

I don`t understand, but I sure think the world of you anyway, and wish that these hateful sob`s could be punished. Not that this would help erase the residual pain that you and others cope with. It makes me angry beyond all reason that these people did this inflicted this suffering in the name of God. I hope that there is indeed a God and that someday these people will answere for what they have done. That we will finally know the peace that we sought ....

(((Ex))) I wish that I could kick thier sorry hateful arses for you :( Thank you for telling. Thank you for having the courage to share of the manipulation through your hopes, the promises of healing, of the betrayal of your trust. Girl you are one of the bravest ladies I know. Don`t you know that most of us understand?? That most of us know how we would have reacted in that situation?? That we understand obediance to the mog, the desire to pleasing to God, the yearning for healing and peace?? You were the first to stand up around here and try to tell folks that wierwille wasn`t the saint we all believed. I don`t think that you should be apologizing to anybody.

I could buy that George, it makes a lot of sense. In many cases, I`ll bet it is true..... Except I have an aunt and uncle that raised 3 normal successful children and one whom was *different* from the day she was born. No effort or expense was spared to try to help her. She was just different in her outlook. It was all about her. I have a niece that is very much the same way...she told her mom when a young child that her mother was there for 2 things ...to buy her things and take her places. My sister laughs to cover the hurt, she tells herself that the now teenager that she has doted on and sacrificed for doesn`t really mean it. That it is normal. The rest of us all see though, that people are only worthy of her attention as long as they can provide her with something that she wants..a resource to be exploited. I have a father in law that is that way as well. I`d have to wonder if it wasn`t both.

You know what is cool, is that in my post cult experience, I have had a serious distrust of anyone who could teach me. I remember telling God that I didn`t trust anyone to teach me about him...not even the guys who wrote the scriptures. The neat thing is rather than striking me dead with lightening, or turning his back on me for failure to operate the correct principals necessary to interact with him..... The doors were opened up in a variety of ways through of variety of teachers....that could teach me within the parameters in which I could accept. Some christian, some not, some sources pretty unlikely to help me out of my confined thinking. The neat thing is...anything important ...it seemed would be taught from 3 different sources...the last always accompanied by a dig in the ribs with an elbow....(not real it was just the mental picture that accompanied it) and a chuckle...yes but it IS in the scriptures too :) This thread wasn`t to point fingers at anyone, but an observation about all of ourselves. We all tend to do it. My husband does, I do....If we only give credence to the sources that voice what we want to think, it limits our potential to grow and understand...we remain narrow in our thinking.

I guess what got me to thinking about this was the sources being quoted by some one to make their point seem more plausible. The podcasts they listen to..the authors quoted....the quotations that automatically appear after their posts. It seems like no matter how outragious a point may seem...you can find a source somehow somewhere that will appear to support your postion. I realize even in my own family that this is a trap that we fall into. The only sources worth listening to or to give credence is those whom support our already preconceived notions. I realize how limiting this can be in our outlook. It can sure hinder the post cult healing process.

Do you remember how he went to California to supposedly check out the *Jesus* movement there...and all he seemed interested in was the orgies...the free sex and the porn flicks?? It puts new light on the accounts where he waxed nostaglic about how some woman who educated him on the beauties of how the human body operated.

Maybe you knew a person who could handle it...who thought it was not a big deal...who were flattered at the attention of the mog....who felt special..We have heard that was the case at times. That doesn`t make the betrayal of wierwille any less heinous, his actions any less abhorant, his guilt any less damnable. Not in THIS case...not in the cases where drugs were used to incapacitate...where peoples lives were savaged when he was thwarted. These were not the actions of a man of the spirit. These were not the actions of a true minister. These were not the actions of a brother in Christ. These were not the actions of even a decent human being. What does that leave?

I have noticed that wierwille`s search for the truth rarely seemed to have anything to do with finding out what God actually had to say about any given subject....but instead, a search for people or obscure doctrines that supported that which he wished to believe...that which would seem to lend support to what he wished to indulge in. It was like he would search until he found a way to make it appear that his actions had God`s seal of approval on them. I am talking even down to the most basic tenants of the Christian faith. We didn`t need to operate *Love God and love our neighbor* because that was biblical neighbor...someone who believed as we did.... We didn`t need to be kind to all because the rest of the world was only body and soul, no better than the beasts of the field. Fornication wasn`t a big deal because all parts of the body are equal... Adultery wasn`t a big deal for those who could handle it, because all things were lawful to them which were in Christ... We didn`t have to look for fruit because the definition was changed to manifestations.. It strikes me now that might be why he got so excited when teaching it`s *Christ in you the hope of Glory* and *We are going to heaven and all hell can`t stop us*... in pfal. That doctrine alone allowed him to behave as he damned well pleased without repercussions...no wonder he was so excited....that eliminated the need to feel any guilt or remorse....or to repent...make amends or change. I don`t think that wierwille was the big research giant that we all were led to believe. He just studied that which supported his sick notions. My question now is....how many of us still operate that way? Have we too been trained to only listen to and give credence to that which supports what we wish to believe? That which allows God to put his seal of approval on the actions we wish to indulge?

I suppose that guess work and ability to *reach up into Daddy`s cookie jar* (Gawd what a stupid sounding analogy anyway) would be hampered by ones alcohol consumption, lust, arrogance that ones actions were acceptable in spite of scriptures saying contrary. I`d say that we could judge fairly accurately what is in ones mind at the time perfectly clearly when one looks at the *fruit* the results of ones actions....which in this case happened to be the death of a trusting follower and employee. I`ll stick my neck out here and *opine* that certainly some of the things going through HIS mind as is evidenced by his actions....were *how can I get in her pants* and *she needs a job here close so that I don`t have to travel to far to get it* and *holy crap the pathetic immature little witch couldn`t handle it...to bad so sad...now what do I say and do to cover my arse*? *I know, I will assassinate HER character an assigne blame to her for spiritual possession* Sound close?

This has been turned into being *all about oldies*, neatly diverting the topic from the tragedy and loss of Sandra Sullivan`s life. The despicable and malicious behavior of those whom should have helped her, and their damnable guilt. In defense of the monsters that used her and pushed her over the edge....you must attack the one whom suffered. You accuse HER of being narcissistic and selfish :( Damned right this stirs up outrage. I think that is what you intended though. I think that you want this so you can cry foul when you finally goad people into angry retorts. Is it all a game? Do you actually care about the person or topic at hand? Or is this one more chance to smack down a poster or opinion that you don`t like?

Oldies, no doubt you are gleefully reporting people left and right for personal attacks. I wonder if that isn`t really why you are so deliberately provoking people. I earnestly wish that you could step back from the little game long enough to actually consider the impact of your *opinion*. Can you grieve with us for a sister that we lost? Can you grieve for that 100th member of our flock that was devoured by the ravening wolves...this precious and real person whom is forever lost to us? Can you see how hurtful the attitude of *stupiddamnedsheep, it`s all her own fault*?

You know, scriptures talk about Jesus as the shepherd. It talks about the shepherd that leaves the 99 sheep in search of the one missing member of the flock. The analogy of the loving shepherd that guides his flock to food and water, whom protects them from harm....Scripture doesn`t talk about him saying *stupid sheep, it`s all your fault that you are lost, hurt and injured* *It isn`t my fault that you got yourself in this mess* * I can`t be bothered to rescue and nurture you, go ahead and die...it`s ok because I have these other 99 to feed and cloth me*. No it was the shepherds job to search, to rescue, to rejoice when he finds the cherished missing member.....to nurture that precious one back to health. Wierwille always talked about God in Christ in us....but in his case I don`t believe that love was in him when looking at how disposable people were. I really don`t see much Christ like at all in his behavior. It was all just words. It`s like he claimed to be working for the master, he was entrusted with a flock, boasting himself a shepherd, and then led the flock away to feast on them and sit on his fanny and do nothing to nurture or protect. Was he really a shepherd? Was he really working for the master to whom we belonged? Rather than ask these tough questions...Rather than hold the thief whom masqueraded as a shepherd and then led the masters flock off to feed off to feed of of....We want to say... Stupid sheep, you shouldn`t have followed that man... Stupid sheep you shouldn`t have fallen in that hole... Stupid sheep, you shouldn`t have let that wolf get so close... Isn`t that why the flock needs a shepherd? a protector? a Guide?? Do you suppose that is why God uses this analogy? Maybe because we really don`t always see all of the dangers and pitfalls that are continually about us? That we need someone that can guide us with compassion, and who`s job it is to be ever vigilant in order to warn us of the dangers? I grieve over the pain that this girl suffered. I grieve that she didn`t have a legitimate minister to turn to for help. I grieve that she felt that the pain was so intense that she felt this was her only option :(

I dunno oldies, your post accusing TBone is pretty personal, and telling him to knock off his opinion because you disagree, trying to silence his voice because his argument has merit is an attack by you in my opinion. It offends me. Probably ought to report yourself :)

Yeah, but if you were a teacher...maybe even a karate teacher who spent a life time training in martial arts and you busted a person in the nose whom was not expecting it, whom trusted you and was not prepared physically to take the blow...someone whom was younger and smaller and more vulnerable than you...the damage inflicted would be catastrophic...and you would indeed be held accountable. Wierwille masqueraded as a minister who cared about you....who had the appearance of a kindly grandfather...who represented as one whom could provide you with all answeres to life and Godliness...who promised you the peace of God ..... IF IF IF.... you would take his class and follow his instructions. All of these things would tend to disarm ones suspicions, ones natural skeptisism.... Your intense desire for peace, for the love of God, for the pain inside to stop would perhaps mute any residual distrust. You then placed your trust and life in the hands of this man believing that God had at last answered your heartfelt prayers .....only to be used, passed around and eventually kicked to the curb like so much trash once these sick old men`s lusts were sated. By the time you find out that it was all an excuse to get you in bed....that these guys...indeed God almighty had no use for you other than as an object to relieve themselves on....my God how intense the shame, the pain must have been. The man utterly and vilely betrayed innocent young people in the name of God and used scriptures, manipulation, intimidation, threats, and down right savaging of peoples lives and reputations to cover his tracks. As if that wasn`t bad enough,....he taught others to do the same. The blood is thick on their hands. The soul less bast ards :(

The thing is....IF twi had a genuine change of heart...IF the leaders were now Godly, one would expect repentance. Part of which would be to apologize, to ask forgivness and attempt to make amends for the heinous acts committed against their innocent brothers and sisters....a Godly remorse for those whom were mistreated. It`s all instructions given in the bible that they claim to venerate. What I actually SEE is the same old thing...cover their bu tts legally, pretend that it never happened, or that the crimes are being over exaggerated, or that it is the victims faults. I know that one doesn`t wish to face the possibility that those whom you have loved, supported, defended and prayed for are actually in truth opportunistic vultures whom will say anything that it takes to keep their few remaining members from leaving with the dollars that support their slimy little cult.

....Jeno, there is no longer any doubt in my mind. All of wierwiiles *research* seemed directed at finding loopholes in the scriptures that would allow him license to do as he damned well pleased. I firmly believe that he will be one of those that Jesus one days tells to *depart for I knew you not*

Brush stroke, that was a pretty astute observation made from the outside looking in. *Ever searching but never actually coming unto a knowledge of the truth* ....to me seems to epitomize the way ministry doctrine and it`s participants. Sadly, many will never know the simplicity and beauty of the 2 great commandments given by Jesus.