rascal

Wow...That is WONDERFUL!! Way to go NATHAN!! Way to go Mom!!! Glad you shared that with us, Aaron sends his greetings :)

The whole family is looking forward to seeing it this weekend :) First reports claim it is even better than the first...

Lol...when I mention that I was in a cult...people laugh and smack their heads and say...*well THAT explains a lot* hee hee... I am truly thankful to have dear friends, good enough to laugh with me over past silliness ...anybody else, just doesn`t matter any more :)

Congratulations Catcup! How I admire you for fighting back to regain the life that you were destined to lead. How much more the feelings of accomplishment, the significance in light of how hard you had to fight. You go girl!!

Well Jeff, My best guess is that people need to spin twi in a positive light because their whole identity is tied up in who they thought they were in twi. It is very hard to go from God`s spiritually elite to dooped by a false prophet. We don`t like to be wrong, Sometimes, we can`t bear the idea of having to start from scratch to re evaluate ourselves, our beliefs, and our understanding of the universe..you know? It takes real meekness and humility to go to God and just cry from the depths of your being....*I don`t know ANYTHING*:( The cool thing is ... is that together you and he can build a new and solid foundation without the cracks and patches of the old one.

Well that you are *beginning to see* is certainly a start WTH, we won`t give up hope for you yet :)

I guess being a mother, and having been in a mind controlling cult, it hits home. I remember the repulsive things that we did...disgusted, saddened, but fierce in our determination to serve God, no matter what the personal cost. Do you remember the teachings about saving yourself? About abandoning your kids if you had to, because the word needed to live on in us...we could always have more children later?? I know that no matter how bad obedience was...the fear of life without God`s blessing was a whole lot scarier?? These guys think that they are doing God`s will, and will no doubt suffer stoically everything that happens to them believing that it is satans persecution :( Again, I wish there was a better way to help.

Yeah...sigh...but I have to wonder if what is happening to them now isn`t way worse. They have been ripped from the only family that they have known. Ripped from the arms of their loving mothers. For what to them seems very normal. It has to be terribly traumatic. It puts me in mind of the stories I have heard about the australian aboriginies and even the american indians...years ago...the kids were taken by force and put into schools to be remolded into what modern civilization thought that they ought to be. The kids returned as adults angry and disolusioned ...no longer a part of their people....yet not a part of society. The authorities tried to eradicate their culture, their beliefs, their history. I know that intervention was needed, I just think that it is pretty scary when the government can move in and seize your children on a fake phone call and then build a case against you. There has to be a better way to serve these children.

OR....the external manifestation in the senses world of the internally reality of damage incurred as a result of contamination by twi involvement...(aka being an arse hole) It`s an infection some never overcome :(

I don`t think that I was *happy* per say. There were brief moments of happiness. I`d have to describe myself as grimly determined. I was in the spiritual battle, no time for emotions. I was focused on the next twig, the next class, witnessing, under shepherding, taking more classes, lots and lots of prayer....volunteering at the limb, volunteering at Emporia... Pressure pressure pressure. Pressure to preform, to teach, to have a new person at twig, to have a new person in each class...to go wow to be corpes....to be sharp so I could serve God and not get tricked into working against him. I don`t think that I knew HOW to be happy, or to have fun. That was one of the single biggest obsticals to overcome after leaving ...is the insane need to be doing something for God 24 hrs a day...I was like a little dog manically spinning in circles trying to catch my own tail. (((Lisa))) That was a horrible thing to happen to you....I understand though, I understand that we weren`t allowed to feel, or to confess a negative....we were to suck it up, renew our minds and move on. TWI leaders were not equipped to help you when something really devistating happened...even if they WANTED to. Your story is not unique, sadly....I remember reading about that happening to another poster. I even knew a girl that was raped by a guy that the tc told her to give a ride home from fellowship...and she wasn`t even allowed to report it to the police....(lest the ministry be blamed) Lisa, I share with others here the outrage at the heartlessness with which you were treated. I thank GOD that you survived, that you lived, and that you are here now with us.

Welcome Humble Pie! Thanks for telling us a little bit about yourself :) My husband was in montana for a while, but I think it was before your time. 78/80

You left out abortions paid for Shopping trips Vacations for the bot`s and spouses in exotic locations... ......and the survey says... # 1 biggest expendeture of our hard earned abs...ding ding ding... Attorny`s fees, and court settlements :(

Yanagisawa...I don`t think many of us are here for your entertainment, or are too concerned about measuring up to your standards. The idea that you set up little tests to see which posters *measure up* to some wierd personal ideal that you carry on THIS thread is too creepy. Yeah, your *turd* was ignored....but in using this thread to make some obscure point about posters rather than mourn the loss of our sister, or decry the evil that pushed her....in my opinion...is a failure in the test within a test of decency or compassion :(

NO! And look at what he did to the people who DIDN`T die. Look at the legacy of vp`s doctrine left behind. I am talking about the pernicious teachings that live on after wierwille died.....look at those whom have embraced his doctrine.....effectively condemning themselves for a life time as heartless boogers with all of the answeres from the scriptures to excuse ANY bad behavior one choses to indulge in...and worse yet, blaming any victims whom were assaulted and wounded by criminal behavior....sadly, a life time of trying to live up to those principles and operating those immutable laws ...and invariably having to accept blame for the failure of faulty teahcings..... These are victims of a despicable doctrine that allows one to spend a lifetime believing that they are a christian. The arrogance aquired with this knowledge will not permit one to consider that they are wrong.... :(

I suppose if the pro wierwille spin folks could voice their opinions without having to accuse everyone whom experienced differently as liars or perpetually whining victims, or exaggerating to make a point, or could make thier points without minimalizing anothers experience or pain...or wouldn`t pull people`s posts out of context to twist them into meaning that the author never intended in order to support an unrelated point...or pick fights in order to bury important first hand testyimoney under pages of fighting in the soap opera basement......or any other number of dishonest attempts to discredit a poster, their point of view or their experience....MAYBE....the wierwille supporters wouldn`t be under fire. The thing is...when you have to stoop to these methods to get your point across...when you have to hurt, to discredit, to attack the veracity and integrity of a supposed brother or sister in Christ....what does that say about you as a christian? What does that say about your beliefs? The thing that I notice in ANY of you guys.... is a complete lack of empathy or consideration for anyone whom doesn`t share your pov. Man, you have to ask yourself......What good do all of those research skills do you if you miss the very most basic and fundamental premiss of Christian beliefs?? What kind of moral compass did you develope under the teachings and studies promoted in twi? Apparently what one learns in twi is how to excuse ones self from behaving with character and integrity.

I knew Karl and can vouch for the veracity of the first few chapters of his book.

Apparently Sky, Paw and many others felt otherwise Oldies. Come monday. how about you *man up* and apologize and try to understand why your words are repugnant and hurtfull, why they would be disturbing. Honestly?? I think that you know. I think that you like to upset people. You carefully couch your words so that you can administer the most offense and then cry *foul* when people are offended. You aren`t the wounded party here. You aren`t being persecuted. You have simply been called on the carpet for playing your little games. The thing is...for those that lived through this stuff...it isn`t a game, a mental challenge to try to *one up* the person on the other side of the argument, to bitch slap a fellow poster and then run high five all of your buddies who agree with you. It is about healing and overcoming, it is about learning to think and understand, to make sense of our pasts in order to avoid having it affect our futures. It`s about telling the other side of the story. If you cannot be an active part of that, I certainly can understand, but it isn`t fair to interfere with the good that is being accomplished in other peoples lives. I say these words with nor rancor, npr wishing you any ill will. I just wish that for a moment, I wish that you could set aside your argument, and see through someone elses eyes for a change, the effect of your words, the pain that you inflict in the name of your cause.

No you are right....we certainly don`t need a first hand eye witness expose on the evils of vpw and twi. Must keep all of that evil hidden, whitewashed and swept under the carpet so that folks aren`t faced with having to acknowledge the ominous implications of the fruit of vpw and the travesty of twi. Nobody REALLY wants to hear the evidence that vic was not only NOT a man of God but the sleaziest of criminal perverts. His actions far more devastating and damage far reaching, than your average criminal. If we don`t talk about the evil man whom stole from, used, injured, and in some cases even caused the death of our brothers and sisters and even went so far as to teach others to do like wise...Why, everybody can go back to pretending that they are some kind of God`s little superstars. The only possessors of God`s truth....some how just a little above all of the rest of our ignorant christian brethren. Man aren`t we just so speeecial. Dove, you are a real hero, man. You just keep on down that well worn path that twi doctrine takes you....go ahead and keep hiding your tracks so that people can`t see where you came from. Erase the signs and remove the warnings posted that inform people of just where that path leads that try to help people avoid the snare. Oh, I understand that it is necessary to discredit the people and paths that will lead others away from the dark little world that twi doctrine confines one. It must just frustrate the stew out of you to try to shut off all of the light shined by so many refugees, that expose the danger and pitfalls that you wish would remain hidden so as to give the appearance of safety and legitimacy to the direction you travel. I have to say, I don`t think that it will work though, there are too many of us now that have escaped the sordid mess of the path twi doctrine leads, and to the best of our ability, we are setting up road blocks, posting warning signs, taking out full page articles in newspaper, broadcasting it on the radio in attempt to warn any whom might be deceived into following that path straight to hell.

You don`t think it was *uck* for a twenty yr old to rub the buttocks of a 50 something man? You don`t think that is every bit as repulsive??? You don`t think it is upsetting to be asked to lie in bed next to a man as old as your grandpa?? It is GROSS! The *ick* factor is every bit as real for a young girl as it would be for you as a young man. Repulsive and Nasty and inapropriate.

Thanks Bride...

Preconcieved judgement...Are you saying he wasn`t a sexual addict and predator? Referring to the horrific details of his behavior as *juicy life* is certainly one way to attempt to explain that which was entirely inapropriate. Had he never repeatedly committed adultery, or drugged and raped unwilling young women, or attempted to have sex with 17 yr old unwilling virgins and visciously punished them afterwards for non compliance, or had a history of bringing young women into headquarters and giving them a job and ex[ecting them to service not only him sexually but his best buddy. Had he not preyed on young women with histories of horrific childhood sexual abuse and promise healing by sex......you are STILL wrong...the above incident was indecent, and inapropriate...both morally and spiritually, not to mention legally, and the woman relating her experience certainly does not say that no harm was caused. As it is, it is just one more piece of the sordid puzzle that was vpw`s life.

One wonders what in your life or back ground would lead you to believe this was at all normal or even remotely acceptable behavior from an elderly man, not to mention a minister of God towards a young woman. We were trained to think of these men as brothers in Christ. Someone whom we were safe with. Someone whom we could trust. Do you honestky think for one second that a 20 year old girl WANTS to have sex with a man old enough to be her grandfather??? There is so much wrong on so many levels. I have to wonder what is *broken* inside that would make the above scenario seem in any way acceptable.

If not murder, negligent homicide, Damned right. That is why these men are regarded with such absolute disgust. Oh NO oldies....it wasn`t so bad at all...just two nasty old men both married....masquerading as ministers...pretending to care, offering spiritual guidance from the man of God for the 20th century....offering the job of a lifetime serving God...promise all the answeres to life and Godliness...peace....they entice, manipulate ensnare and have sex with an obviously vulnerable young woman....She is used like so much trash and when she can`t handle it...oh well her fault ...now we do damage control. Do you think that they were one bit sorry? Did they apologize? Did they repent?? Well if they had changed their behavior... I could even give you the point of not knowing what was in their minds...But history shows that they changed nothing...they just found more young women...some believed what they were told...others unwilling needed the extre *persuasion* of drugging...some whom refused to be punished by throing them off of the wow field and turn thier family and friends against them...in as low and vindictive a manner as I have ever seen. Sure, sure, the guys are fallable....innocent little lambs..mustn`t judge them to harshly...that way we can kind of let ourselves and those we love off the hook for the parts we played in destroying lives doesn`t it?? *Stupiddamnedsheep* couldn`t handle it. That let`s everybody off the hook and we can walk away with our consciences intact :( God, I have more respect for the criminal that takes aim with a gun and pulls the trigger, They are certainly more honest. What wierwille and Allen did was worse, imo

Wow...Well said Bow Shiftthis, I know that you speak of the twi that you have seen. Please understand there is a whole other side that was seen by the people who at one time held the same ideals and opinions as yourself. What you read here are the experiences of the people who saw the otherside of twi...the one they keep hidden from public. The dark ugly side of sexual abuse, of adultery, of drugging and rape, of physical abuse, of child abuse, of forced abortions...of suicides...of deaths resulting from following policies and orders. No this side of twi isn`t pretty, it isn`t easy to read about but it is every bit as valid a part of twi as the *happy* picture at the local level that you enjoy. The people who suffered, our brothers and sisters who died...they deserve to have their stories told as well. Trust me...most of us truly wish that the way had been what we believed it to be...that these really WERE made up stories. The pain inflicted is real, the loss genuine, and in many cases the destruction permanent :( Sure, many of the abusers are gone due to lawsuits and liability. But the people who supported their policies, the people that enabled them and then covered are still there ...they are still abusing and hurting people in God`s name. No doubt you are enjoying your local fellowship...most of us did. That doesn`t negate the pain and suffering being inflicted upon your brothers and sisters in Christ at hq and hidden pockets all over the us. However, IF and when the ugly side of twi rears it`s ugly head, if it is your family one day being threatened, your heart crushed, you whom they have stolen that which was never theirs........hopefully we will still be here... to listen, to love and to pray for you too.

Apparently so Ex...apparently so :(