rascal

Things were not that way for most of the rest of us. Sure you were free to chose NOT to go wow or corpes NOT to obey leadership, NOT to accept whatever abuse was the leaders whim. But that meant you had instead chosen to be *stiff necked* *not obedient to God* *lacking spiritual maturity* and as such MUST be considered *spiritually suspicious*. Come on, who wants to be a dissapointment to God? Who wants to allow the devil spirits entry who wants to miss out on the chance to see a miracle by failure to obey God? Who wants to allow a worldly education to interfere with ones spiritual responsibility. I heard LCM arrogantly proclaim that he refused to hang out with anyone who WASN`T corpes because they just weren`t worth HIS time. Yeah I know that there were some pockets where the programing and requirements were not as intense. I also know that in the very same state where those fellows were allowed to follow their goals and dreams, there were tc`s terrorizing families and sexually abusing the children. I guess God must have loved you guys who had merry times just a little bit more eh?

Dunno about specific spirits. I absolutely believe that these guys were what is referred to in the scriptures as *false prophets* *ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour*. Their actions place them in this catagory. I don`t believe that they were born again or of the spirit if you accept galatians 5 definition of who is of the spirit and who is of the flesh. What ever the case, they used the scriptures and God`s name to grant themselves the authority and power to steal that which was not theirs. According to galatians 5 anybody who does what these guys did, will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Whether it takes a particular devil spirit to behave as these men did, or a lack of Holy spirit abiding in a person, or just plain orneriness beyond the normal persons capacity to understand, the damage wrought is the same.

Happy Birthday, girl. Hope that it was a good one :)

Jeff, I understand your anger. We were betrayed, whether it was physically or spiritualy. Wierwille took that which was not his, utilizing the name of God and scriptures to facilitate his crime. Our lives were hijacked, our time and resources and youth confiscated...used to support incomprehensible evil. Some of us lost everything, a few lost their lives :( When the apologists proclaim that *God* called them/us to this .... it makes me physically ill.

See...THATS where I have a problem. If God called you two there to be *blessed* that also means he called ex and kris, and so many many like them to be harmed in the most brutal of betrayals. Even worse Guys....some people DIED!! He called them to the very same ministry to be taught by the very same men,...but instead of warm funzy times....To be drugged and raped, to be beaten and told that they must accept it. To be told that sleeping with vpw was what would make life worth living and help deliver them from the devil spirits....to be so stripped of dignity and fellowship witheheld that some actually took their lives. Ok?? I can`t lay that at God`s feet. I don`t think that I could love or serve a God that would do that. I can`t respect anyone that would claim that he is responsible for that. What I CAN accept is that there are wolves in sheeps clothing masquerading as prophets...false prophets ...wolves seeking whom they may devour. You know...if you hold as truth...what a guy said who could also rape your sisters and savagely destroy lives at a whim...you really have to wonder how much good all of that *knowledge we aquired while sitting at his feet is going to serve us. I honestly wonder...how many of us twi folks are going to arrive in Jesus` presence and be told to *depart* for I knew you not.

I asked oldies that once TLB, and he said that no it wouldn`t be the same. That the homosexuality would make it more unacceptable. I have to wonder why the coersion/manipulation/drugged rape of young teen aged boys would be considered any less heinous than the crime of rape of teen aged girls by a trusted spiritual advisor, the most spiritual man in our world at that time. I don`t think the *ick* factor that a young girl would feel for an old pervert would be any less intense than a young man that was required to submit sexually in order to recieve spiritual enlightenment or healing. I`d love for oldies or mike or dove to explain.

That accusation of unfairness is rediculous. I`ll bet I have had just as many posts deleted as either of you. I have also been suspended, and my point of view cannot be more diametrically opposed to yours. How either if you can claim unfair treatment, based on your pov is beyond me. You don`t want to be called an apologist, but by God you sure don`t mind calling others liars or exaggerators or whiners, or attack their veracity. Come on guys, you are better than this.

I guess that it is all in ones perspective. I think the moderators do the best that they can to keep gs a place of healing and benefit. We have to rely on them to be fair and honest in the enforcement of the policies. To me it looks like you guys have been finding ways to circumnavigate the rules for years in order to carry out your relentless campaign. The loop holes and wiggle room are being closed tighter and tighter for disruptive and hurtful behavior. But seriously... Is this not a good thing? In your ardor to protect wierwille and his memory, or mine in wanting to expose who and what he was .....do we really WANT to be hurtful or disrespectful or unkind to one another?

Kristin, thank you. I know that it couldn`t have been easy to share all of this stuff. ' Thank you for sharing this stuff that will open the doors for others to escape. I know that I had long left twi physically, but was still completely bound mentally for many years. If folks don`t know what kind of guy vpw was....the man behind the persona presented to the public...it makes it so much more difficult to break away from the damaging doctrines and impossible standards that he insisted were our duties as believers. Excathedra was the first to have the courage around here to show what vpw was...for years she has had to endure the snide inuendos that she was a liar or she wanted it or nobody held a gun...that she an others who protested their treatment were perpetually whining victims...etc. Your testimony coroborates her story. When the rest of us find out how wierwille was messed up ... that he was quite self serving and cruel...we (me anyway) finally can permit ourselves to break free from the *ifyoulovegodyouwilldothis* prison of twi doctrine that still kept us from healing. In telling your stories...the rest of us ...those who have dark dirty little secrets of our own hidden away in the back of our minds of experiences that we are so deeply ashamed of....no not this same one perhaps but others as gruesome and harrowing.....it helps to know that it wasn`t just us or that we weren`t spiritual enough to handle it..or we were possessed. Finding out who and what vp was finally opened the doors to the dark little prison that twi doctrine had placed me in. All I can say is thank you.

Hurt feelings?? Damned right. Embarrassed?? Absofrigginlutely....mortified even :) But please point out...where did *I* whine?? You play by the rules here no matter what your pov is...as is evidenced by the suspension of two posters with divergent points of view. You guys had posts deleted...suck it up, and accept that you went over the line in your ardor to present your pov. We all do it from time to time.....we get reigned in..... we then post within the parameters allowed...or we face the consequences. Not all that hard to abide by.

Dove, I was disruptive and obnoxious enough to warrant being suspended... shrug ... tempting as it would be to whine of persecution or unfair treatment .... that was what it really all boiled down to.... my actions. Apparently your posts were found to be disruptive and obnoxious enough to remove. It is obviously possible to post vile things, to attack a person and their credibility without calling names or technically breaking the rules. To complain because you are not permitted to vomit all over people at will, any who`s experiences give testimony contrary to that which you hold as truth, (however politely you manage to do it) it would appear, is not being tolerated any more. Man up friend, take a look at what you do and it`s repercussions on the people you claim as brothers and sisters....instead of blaming it all on the moderators lack of appreciation for your pov. I`ll say it again...you and Oldies weren`t suspended. The folks who WERE have different view points .. to claim there is a mission or agenda here that prevents you from expressing your ideas is not fair or honest.

Welcome back Jonny, I have to agree with dwbh., and have wanted to say myself that starting the welcome back thread for me was a seriously classy thing to do. Thank you, your are alright in my book.

Yup! What stays in Cyber Purgatory stays in cyber purgatory! But Rascal, remember that time when we....ummm... it was so...never mind.... :) shhhhhh Jonny, wouldn`t want to let THAT little secret out of the bag .... Hmmm fish out...I can host it at the lake...but I`d love an excuse to visit ak and tie into a real fish :)

I think that it is absolutely rediculous for you to whine about being treated unfairly. For goodness sakes....it certainly wasn`t you nor dove that were suspended from posting for an entire month. I`d say that a deleted post or two is a minor little wrist slap in comparison. Nobody is persecuting you OR your pov....Personally?? I think that is simply easier to manufactured an excuse to preclude one from having to examine ones perspective and figure out why it or they would be deemed offensive enough to need removal.

Me too Jonny, and right back atcha. I don`t know the difference between white n black crappy (pronounced with an o) but they sure are game little buggers. ..oh and Grumpy as far as what Jonny n I did???? I`ll never tell..... Don`t you know what goes on in cyber purgatory STAYS in cyber purgatory! :)

Thanks friend :) Saw where you caught a big salmon. I was fishing in NC at my brothers place this week and caught a nice 2 lb small mouth bass and a 12 inch crappy. Not as nice as your fish, but a heck of a lot of fun all the same. Can`t wait to get after some large mouth and pike over the 4th in michigan. Life is good

I wanted to thank you guys for all of your kind words and encouragement. Daughter Abby, (the next in line below Stephen) in the pic has since begun her testing. She has an extensive written exam that takes weeks (50 questions that require several paragraghs each to answer) lot of thought provoking things to consider, to be followed by a practical exam, endurance, techniques etc.... and then she tests before the board of black belts for our federation (in oct) The whole process takes about 6 months :) We had a big demonstration at the town square yesterday where we featured in weapons, self defense, kata, and board breaking. Lot if fun, The kids did *what if* scenarios showing how to defend themselves in different situations. People laughed uproariously as my 10 yr old little cutie took out the *bad guy* after her big brother Stevie (6` 180 lbs) threw his hands up screamed like a girl and ran in the other direction when confronted by the knife wielding robber demanding their cash :)

Thank you Rocky.

This is the whole crew :)

It requires years of hard work, dedication, and perseverance to attain the rank of Sho Dan. It is a milestone in a person’s life, one remembered, and well deserved. A black belt is not what one wears, rather a Black Belt is what one becomes. Congratulations Stephen! My son Stephen (18) has recieved his black belt in Karate this week. This is in a traditional Japanese style that is not easy to master. It has taken him 6 1/2 years of hard work to reach this mile stone. One of my favorite quotes is... *A black belt isn`t something that you earn, it is something that you become* It isn`t about physical ability...lots of people have that... it is about something that you develop inside. Perseverance, determination, honesty, integrity...heck just good moral character in general, you know? This is the boy, that after the first 6 months, the instructor asked me if there were some kind of learning disabilities that he needed to be aware of.. :blink: ...(ie theres something wrong with that boy)...lol This is a kid that suffered set backs and in my opinion, extremely unfair treatment at times....but he sucked it up, persevered even when it wasn`t fun, when it wasn`t easy and achieved his goal in spite of the difficulty and numerous obsticals. I am so proud of his accomplishment. That`s one kid down, 6 more to go :) Thank you for letting me share my joy.

I thought this was a real good one from JeffSjo when speaking of vpw *I WISH HE WAS THE MAN HE WAS PAINTED TO BE. *

Maybe you ought to ask yourself why you believe that there was sincerity at some level. Did you know or interact with these folks on a first hand basis to make this assumption? Many of those whom you have labeled with group think here did. Maybe you need to hear what the first hand witnesses can tell you :(

Jeno, according to twi dogma....there is no room for Jesus, the God given shepherd to guide and protect his flock. In twi theology it was all about us and our powers and our standing and our abilities and our operation of principles and laws, and our knowledge of the truth. In reality, we simply became very arrogant. It takes a humility and meekness to trust in the shepherd.

LOL...My kiddo and I just wrapped up a dinner theatre production of a play called *Much ado about murder*...lol It had a lot of shakespere innuendos and funnies. Jeff part of your charm, and I have told you before, is your ability to present your point with kindness and willingness to consider the others point of view. There are those whom will stop at nothing to smack down any whom don`t share their belief system.

Dove, what you should be asking yourself is why it bothers you so for people to talk about the wolf. Why does it bother you if people warn of the false prophet wierwille? There are many facets to this. Just because you are incapable of understanding the benefit and need does not negate the importance of what is accomplished here. There is more than just physical escape from twi.....yeah that is the first step. The rest of our lives will be spent freeing ourselves from the mental chains that bind us to the doctrine of a man of the flesh, a false prophet, a wolf in sheep`s clothing. Leaving twi is just the first step in a lifetime of unwrapping the insiduous bonds of this criminals doctrine that keep us ensnared. If you are honest Dove, you will be asking yourself why this bothers you to the point where you will do anything you can to sabotage the good that is occurring, to silence the voices that tell what happened.....and why it is ok to harangue and mistreat people whom don`t share your view point. I understand having invested a life time in this doctrine. I understand getting to the point where we staked our lives on believing that wierwille was teaching us Godly information....it is damned hard to start over again...There is all of that accrued status of being super believers...heralders of the truth...saving the world with the word....I get it... I understanding madly trying to discredit any whom threaten that perception of ones self and accomplishments. Holding fast to wierwilles doctrine, or his credibility as a teacher or minister or even a decent human being ....the lack of ability to come to grips with the implications of his fruit....to my way of thinking is nothing more than arrogance and and deep seated fear of finding out you were wrong all these years. Friend, it is sad that your need to believe drives you relentlessly to silence the testimony that gives an accurate picture of who and what vpw was and how worthy his doctrine is to base ones spiritual life on...