rascal

Yup Groucho.....Dove gets ALL his info from 2nd hand sources :) Our first hand accounts mean nothing when they counter that which he wishes to believe.

A phone call??? A freakin PHONE call?? But then THAT would be heresay from a nameless faceless source, isn`t it? Dove, you never left your area. You never went through the corpes program or the wow program. You were never a child subjected to the horrors of physical and sexual abuse, nor a woman, nor subjected to the indignities of a woman that was the object of a mog`s desires or pregnant while involved in any of these programs. You never were subjected to the pressures or requirements, or deeper spiritual truths for those whom were considered *spiritually mature enough to handle it* Hells bells, MOST of us had the same experiences as you when we were in our local areas in our friendly little fellowships. This and this alone is the only thing that you personally are actually QUALIFIED to comment on ...the catagories pertaining to you personally in your immediate area.....for you to presume to comment on anything else in twi is speculation, accusations and out and out lies. Pretty rich for you to try to hold anyone else to the letter of the law. For YOU sir in your extremely limited exposure.... to presume to tell us whom experienced the darkness...that the sun shone out of vp`s every orface, for you to presume to speak with any amount of credibility concerning wow, way corpes, child abuse, forced abortions, destroyed marriages, rapes, suicides, and the rest of the cruelty that the REST of us actually experienced...For you to think that you have ANY idea what the REAL ministry was like outside of your personal experiences in your little town is rediculous beyond all reason..and to think that your pov has credibility when measured against the rest of us whom actually experienced these horrors is preposterous. For you Dove, in your extremely limited exposure to vpw, to twi`s top leadership and to twi`s policies for most of the ministry ..to presume to speak with ANY kind of authority as to what the REAL twi is/wascan be neither a realistic or even remotely accurate account....especially when you have eye witness first hand accounts from the victims of the policies, from the families who witnessed the abuses, from the leaders whom were aware...all here giving testimoney to counter your limited experience. You speak of that which you have no knowledge. Your credibility to comment on these things is zero.

Abby, I am speaking of the guys who never left their area...never went wow, never were in the corpes never interacted with wierwille on a personal basis. There are others here whom have seen wierwille who know of his vile behavior but chose to interpret the actions differently. Both types would rather assasinate the character and veracity of the person who`s experience is living in your face proof that we might have been wrong or decieved. Find a way to blame the victims and then one isn`t forced to examine ones own guilt or faults, one isn`t forced to humble themselves and begin fresh with a clean slate and build a healthy understanding and belief system. One can then remain arrogant and complacent knowing that they are the super believers of this day and age and that their knowledge makes it acceptible to dang on anybody or anything that threatens their perception. What they do is delberate, hurtful, unkind, and cruel ... behaviors one does not expect of a proclaimed christian...but in twi defenders acceptable. Their beliefs are toxic and harmful, I don`t care what they believe...but when they use that belief as justification and excuse to hurt another...I am sick of it. I am sick of being on the recieving end, I am sick of seeing topics derailed, I am sick of information deliberately buried ..and most of all I am sick of seeing people hurt in the name of a belief or an ideal.

This is so true. I wish that those who do this in the name of wierwille/twi would examine their actions and motives (heart) in light of this. Where does your conduct fall in *Love God* and *Love your neighbor*? What good is any of your aquired knowledge or skill or principles ? What good is your prayers or your studying or your application of rules and immutable laws if in doing so, your responsibility to the two great commandments given us by Jesus is excused or ignored? Please, my question is genuine, my bewilderment at the treatment deemed acceptable to fellow Christians. This just isn`t how people filled with the spirit (love) of God behave to one another...not in defense of an idea or principle.

There are people who cleverly mask their nasty insinuations, their intentions to cause hurt in innocuous looking queries. Then when people react strongly to their cruelty...the offenders back off in pretended surprise....who..lil ole innocent ME???? Oh you just misunderstood....stop picking on poor me..your all such meanies... Bah...it is deliberate and an ongoing process to cause as much disruption as the rules allow. I don`t understand treating people this way. Most of you doing it never really had any first hand interactions with the folks that you are defending , but you damned sure don`t have a problem with causing pain for living breathing souls here in defense of your ideals :(

Gosh Lucy, you are swinging at everyone. You threw the first punch by blaming ex and Dot for not speaking up in twi. I think you ought to get to know these folks and what they actually did, and what were the consequences of their efforts before being so harsh in your criticism. It just isn`t fair.

Pretty harsh LVP. Have you never heard or understood about grooming? indoctrination? manipulation? In twi, we learned to doubt ourselves. We trusted these men when they said that they spoke for God. We believed them when they said our misgivings were simply our own natural man being deceived by Satan. We believed them when they backed themselves up with scriptures. We believed that to defy them was to be stiff necked...to lose our protection from God... Have you any idea what happened when these ladies DID tell Lucy??? I`ll bet you don`t have any idea how mant people really DID speak up only to be escorted off grounds at gun point and all of the good believers told that the woman was posessed. No you don`t...you`d rather sit in judgement over them 20 years after the fact beating your chest self rightiously proclaiming what YOU would do in their situation before you ever hear their story.....well hind sight is 20 20 ... Crap...I was molested as a youngster...I never told. Why? because the guy was good at ensuring compliance and secrecy. Why didn`t I tell as an adult?? Shame..guilt...fear of not being believed. I think that predators are very good at picking out their victims....they are adept at disguising their snares...and they are really good at ensuring silence. These guys were scum bags...and you are tearing into the people that they treated so cruely.

Dove, please define how, where, and why I have hurt you. Yes, I will admit that I despise wierwille for the pain and damage that he inflicted... I detest his teachings that justify and facilitate evil... I hate what abiding by these teachings has done to you and others, but I am unaware of any deliberate or hurtful personal insults that I have ever leveled against you. Dove, please define how, where, and why I have hurt you. Yes, I will admit that I despise wierwille for the pain and damage that he inflicted... I detest his teachings that justify and facilitate evil... I hate what abiding by these teachings has done to you and others, but I am unaware of any deliberate or hurtful personal insults that I have ever leveled against you.

Rocky, I think that you nailed it dead on as to why it is so important to protect vpw. If his credibility as a minister dies, the whole standard that they have used to define themselves and the world around them collapses.

Oldiesman, you don`t believe what you do is abusive according to the current rules....you have all of these logical arguments to sanction what you do. The bottom line is that what you and dove do, HURTS people...ok? You guys offend people with your callousness. Justify it, explain it, qualify it...but that is the direct result of your actions. This is a course that you and Dove have taken...so be it...but one I find unfathomable from someone whom wants to proclaim themselves a Christian.

Jonny, that is not fair. I was suspended for just as long as you, and we both are entirely opposite sides of the issue. How can you honestly believe that one side is favored over the other? It seems like you guys don`t want to examine what it is that is so offensive about the posts called into question. It is far easier to claim victim hood and persecution ...effectively placing the blame on someone else and eliminating the need for personal introspection and self evaluation. Along with what you are saying Dot....I have met Dot...and SHE is who she says she is.

I am not permitted to call you a liar, but this statement is simply inacurate when it comes to your conduct here. You have harassed, stalked, insulted, denigrated me, my ideas, denied my experiences and called into question my veracity for years. Before it was cracked down upon, you called me viscious names, accused me of lying, called into question my mental stability, my qualifications as a parent, etc. Your treatment of others is at times cruel and vindictive as well. It is sad to me, that you feel that anybody who doesn`t support your version of twi is considered worthy of such a lack of kindness, compassion, or just plain decency. Adherence to Twi doctrine appears to have made you hard. This is not the behavior one would expect of a fellow Christian :(

Rejoice.... I think that these guys can`t bear to believe that they were wrong... it is all about fragile egos...so one must find a way to shore up their shaky beliefs to belie the truth of the evidence of the fruit in their lives and ministry that betrays them. Shaz...*clearly, God`s standard is not how accurately we interpret every jot and tottle of the Bible, as some of his own never read one. Rather, it is about how people loved* Absolutely great statement...the two great commandments that Jesus gave........and yet sadly, the knowledge of twi seems to preclude them from this....basically it seems to do little more than puff people up with such arrogance, they are incapable of love. That doesn`t matter though, because THEY know the scriptures better`n anybody else. Geisha is right...these guys don`t see the glaring lack in their pitiful selves or their so called ministry because of their lack of exposure to genuine christians who ARE operating in the love of God. Biblical knowledge is worthless if you don`t understand the love of God.

Yes to all of the above... Dott, this is truly a moving video....(psalmie brought it to my attention last year) My daughter has watched it countless times, she has talked the theatre into letting her try to do something of the same sort. She even has that song for her ring tone on her telephone :)

I agree with Bramble.... start a new hobby. Learn a new skill....embark in a dream that you didn`t have time for...The one thing that I have learned over the years is that there is no *one size fits all* healing. My husband and I had this conversation yesterday....what will help ne, is not necessarily what works for another. Many people go back to school. As for us...dog training clubs, horse training, ball teams, I took a stained glass class, Theatre has been a lot of fun for meeting new friends and integrating into the community, the little country church that we occasionaly attend has had an impact. I`d have to say though, that out of the many activities that the kids and I have all participated in, that it was studying karate that helped me the most in recovering my sense of dignity and self esteem. The comradery as we all worked hard under not so pleasant circumstances, to improve ourselves and reach a common goal, the stamina built from working untill exhaustion night after night in not so pleasant circumstances, does a lot lo relieve stress and anxiety, the preparation for competitions for exams...so many things that without realizing it, changed us subtly on the inside. A quiet confidence and strength grew to replace the fear and uncertainty. I highly recommend it.

Thanks guys. I don`t think that you can make anybody get professional help. As far as when to be a pest?? I just have to follow my gut instinct....I tell myself that I would rather be a pest and find out later that it was unnecessary, feel slightly foolish and embarrassed, than to ignore that feeling of uneasiness and later find out that person died. :( It is a hard thing to live with.

Wow..great idea Abby. It is a definite thing to consider :)

Jonny brother, you have my respect, and I do not want to argue with you either. I appreciate you putting on the brakes and resisting the urge to smack this mouthy, oh so irritating woman down :) Sadly, no fishing for me. The pasture that I had arranged for the horses fell through at the last miniute and I will be at home fencing in Tenn. instead of enjoying fishing and festivities in Michigan over the 4th. Maybe the ministry had the right idea about the *no serious pets* policy at that...lol Maybe we will jump in the river with the kayaks instead.

and...I think that the teachings have failed you too Dove, you just don`t know it.

I don`t know if that has anything to do with this thread, but the situation that I probably was referring to was about a woman I knew who lost her husband suddenly. She wouldn`t crawl out of the bed. She didn`t seem willing to go on. I would go over there daily for a couple of hours and get her up, make her talk to me, insist that she get out of the house and come to dinner once a week...etc At the time she said she hated me for being such a pest...now she thanks me and still comes to dinner once a week and it is 15 years later...lol The reason I took her depression and withdrawal so seriously was because of an incident that occured years earlier. Our tc in twi was depressed, his wife left him and his kids. He asked our help to get his house in order...he tried to give us things...he kept asking us to kick his bu tt. All we knew to do was to love him and pray for him After all, he was corps, he was clergy...they aren`t in danger of that sort of thing. We didn`t know the danger signals, but I knew something was seriously wrong...I begged my spouse to talk to him daily...I talked to our lc ....he was not concerned. I was of course a woman and only spouse corpes ...so nobody took me seriously. What I was suggesting was unthinkable. The guys that might have made a difference, ignored him...figuring undoubtedly he was way to spiritual for that sort of thing. The man indeed killed himself. I never wanted to be guilty of ignoring someones cries again...so I make it a point to make a pest of myself calling, going over, inviting them out, giving them a chance to talk if I even suspect that someone is struggling...untill I am sure that they are on solid ground. I don`t know if that answeres your question or not Lifted.

Brilliant Jeno! Great point Geisha! Jonny, I think that David behaved as a man that had no spirit....ie it wasn`t available according to twi doctrine. I think wierwille did the same....Thing is...wierwille claimed to be born again, a man of the spirit....scriptures say that these guys live a higher standard. Wierwille hasn`t got any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven ... according to galatians. I think judging by the evidence of the fruit in his life...the sucker didn`t have a clue about spiritual matters.

Confident in ones walk with God?? Those of us that joined at 16,17, 18 ... for many of us...TWI teaching is what defined that walk. TWI teaching is the only thing many of us knew about faith and practice. How could we have known any better than what we learned from the man of God for our day and time, and the ministry that brought us the greatness of God`s word?? Why on earth would we doubt the people who claimed to speak for God? Why would we not do everything within our power to have access to the people who were teaching the truth like it hadn`t been known since the first century? You complied or you were thrown outside the hedge of God`s protection and denied access to the hous hold of God`s elect. Damned right, if we had been taught honestly, we might have stood a chance of having confidence in our walk and stand with God.\ For you Dove, to claim that it was otherwise, given your limited exposure to anything outside your tiny little geographic location, is absurd.

[quote name='Mike' date='Jun 27 2008, 10:29 AM' post='419076' I find DWBH's conduct to be unscriptural, and therefore negating any truth he may otherwise try to issue. Q.E.D. ;) How so? On what do you base this statement.

It seems like you guys feel that you were some how better or smarter, or had better discernment abilities or God liked you better....because you weren`t betrayed. Do you really think that God would reach out to someone who was hurting, someone who needed him ...somebody he knew wasn`t strong due to abuse from child hood...Do you really think he would deliver them to a man who would promise God`s goodness and healing...all of the answeres to life and Godliness....only to have them betrayed and beaten and drugged and raped or any of the other indignities that we suffered as a result of following this mans instructions and believing the requirements of his doctrines? I think that is darned near blashphemous to lay that at God`s feet :(

I can see it now.... God...Hmmm I want you all to come know me in this ministry.....I have called you......Lemmee see now....little Jonny, he gets to be blessed and sing happy songs of commeradery...cause he is special....Kristin...well now she will have to be beaten and forced to have sex in order to recieve my healing cause I don`t like her as much... jonny`s buddies, I guess they can persue their educations and become millionairs....Groucho he`s a booger so he will have to forgo his education and career....Dovie well now he gets to learn about me cause I like hi, best.....but Excathedra she will need to be drugged and raped...This guy will lose his wife and children....Tom ....Rochelle well too bad I guess they will die...but hey oldies man will be favored because he is so special It`s all good because I called them to this ministry and they all learned how to read the bible.....and by golly....I just don`t understand why everybody isn`t praising and thanking me.... It is offensive to type that stuff ...even when being outragious to make my point.... Basically what I am saying is....If God called you then that means he also called others to intense suffering, pain and death. Do you have any idea how sickening it is to believe that God would call one to this crap... To have suffered intensely and have someone claim that this was God`s plan? It makes it mighty hard to trust a God if you were one of the unlucky ones that suffered, or your child abused, or your loved one died. at the hands of twi leaders.