rascal

Amen Tzaia..it is a disgrace NOT to be a disgruntled former follower :)

One of mine is currently testing for her black. It is about a 6 month process. She will be tested on technique, forms, stamina. She has to complete a 50 question written exam that requires several paragraghs to a page to answer each one. It takes weeks, all of which she has to complete BEFORE being permitted to go to the board of black belts for our style here in the us. I love reading about the rigid standards required by tkd as well. When you have earned that belt, you have really accomplished something. I know that your kiddo recognizes that it isn`t even about physical abilities....but something that you are inside. Courtesy, honesty, integrity, reverence, respect, are some of the bb principles that I remember.

That is impressive, I mean it. How many kids in today`s world can accomplish what your kiddo did? I didn`t know what was required of a tkd student to achieve rank, my understanding and already high respect for your style has risen even higher. So many schools simply give the belts as a matter of course. I know of one even in our style that frustrates the stew out of me...the kids reaching brown in a year...heck it took 6 1/2 years of really hard work to earn our black belts. Oh and we weren`t told to use wooden spoons in karate either.

LOL RR :) Karate is the same way. I tend to think most reputable styles of martial arts are. Congratulations on your terrific daughter. It takes years of hard work, sweat, at times pain, and tears etc to achieve what she has. I believe that the people that stick with it develop stamina, a physical and mental toughness to see them through even when it gets tough, when exhaustion sets in, they just don`t give up because things aren`t fun any more.

As you can see the storm clouds were piling up....lol the gates of heaven opened and poured shortly after the picture was taken. We had a lot of fun, broke some boards, sparred, demonstrated kata. We have been asked back next year.

I thought this was a neat picture of the demonstration the kids and I participated in last month. We are going to do another one today for kids in a summer out reach program.

...and we certainly have a right to our own opinion AND the opportunity to voice our disagreement in his apprisal of us, and our motives when he labels us *disgruntled ex followers* AND object to his representation of twi or anybody implimenting it`s doctrines as a Godly, spiritually wholsom group.

I stand by my post. I believe that the threads on child abuse that Dooj pulled up in the *about the way* forum will more than demonstrate that the practice was wide spread.

I stand corrected Dave :) Damned Pi$$ed over the treatment of myself and so many of the rest of those afore mentioned *energetic, enthused biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi lingual, mobile, available, and committed to it is written men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the word*. How DARE the way international take such a fine group of people and subject them to the indignities of sexual servitude, forced abortions, physical, mental and sexual abuse their children, destroy their marriages, isolate them from their natural families, appropriate their hard earned money, squander their time, their resources, and their youth, and yes even drive some to suicide and death???? On what planet or in ANYBODIES book is this deemed even remotely acceptable mr. lynn? You ARE nuts, and anybody who follows you are still being led by deception, in my book, and further more, I don`t believe that there is anything even remotely Godly in your effort to draw people back into the system and teachings that enabled the bullies to thrive unchecked and facilitated the cruel abuse, on the tens of thousands of wonderful folks you mentioned...young folks who MIGHT have made a genuine impact for good in this world had their lives not been hijacked by these vile loathsome monsterous low life sob`s that preyed upon the innocent....these scum that consumed their victims, and once their usefulness exhausted....callously discarding the battered and broken lives like so much garbage when their appetites and sick lusts were sated....to then move on to new fresh innocent souls...the blood of their most recent victims still dripping from their fangs.... I believe that you guys that promote this stuff have abided in darkness for so long, excusing it`s oppression, denying the stench, pretending that it is light that you wouldn`t know God or Jesus if one of them bit you on the arse (figuratively speaking of course) What you promote offends me. I hope that you ALL have to answer to God one day for what you have stolen. I`ll bet he won`t let you sweep it under the rug like you have tried to do in this world. Whew..I guess that I`d better switch to decalf :unsure:

Agreed NIS

As with everything else in twi oldies, there were teachings for the general public to hear, and then there were the practices and standards for those of whom more was expected. Not being married or having had children, or been a child yourself in twi, in all probability, you wouldn`t have ever been subjected to the genuine application of the *rod of correction* teachings and it`s enforcement. You had what appeared on the surface to be an innocuous teaching that was in reality a license for incredible abuse. Don`s back ground history supports that it was ministry wide....as does the experience of the now grown children that endured the abuse. Cake, there was another thread about child abuse in twi a while back where the now grown kids related stories similar to yours...as well as parents required to impliment and why...of course it was disrupted by people claiming that it wasn`t really abuse, or that people simply didn`t follow official standard. I will try to pull it up for you.

Dot, No offense taken..you are correct. I would never presume to speak as a corpes participant, with the exception of what I experienced as app. corpes a couple of years and a couple of wow years before marrying into the corpes...(just to clarify :) ). The teachings and the pressure, the manipulation, the level of abuse the standards required were different all over...depending on who your leaders were and what program you might be in. Even within the programs themselves....it was different for participants depending on who, when, and where, whether one was male or female, single, married, with or with out children. Every pov is valid, every one needs to be heard in order to get the complete picture that was twi. I didn`t bring this up to be mean, and I don`t want to gang up on the guy, because like you said...he is a really, really nice guy when he isn`t defending twi. The fact is though...that not everybody enjoyed the same idyllic twi experience as was available in any one particular geographic area. To proclaim that ones personal experience as universal is one thing....but for that to be the basis for nonstop stalking and harassment of others who`s experience differed, it is has simply gotten out of hand.

I second...

Yup...there is a lot more going on here ... and unless you personally have been the target of his relentless stalking, of his malicious attacks questioning everything from your sanity to your veracity to your character and motives....claiming that what happened to you and what was taught to sanction the evil and the other insane cruelty that we lived never really happened because those of us that tell any type of abuse stories are simply the product one would expect of perpetually whining victims ......I`m betting that you probably WON`T get it. Please believe that Dove is finally reaping what he has sown. People when they realize that he wasn`t even there to be able to deny that these doctrines were enforced or the teachings that facilitated the cruelty was taught....he loses all credibility to harass the posters sharing their stories.

One OUGHT to ask themselves WHY the former followers might be disgruntled...eh? It isn`t like we woke up one day and decided that on which we had based decades of our life, volunteered tens of thousands of hours of our time, invested tens of thousands of dollars of our hard earned money, spent hundreds of thousands of hours in prayer for this group, it`s leaders, and it`s well being.... and suddenly decided that we wanted to be disgruntled for the heck of it.

You know...if vp hadn`t been a slime ball, scum bag, serial sexual predator, drunken raping PIG....we wouldn`t have anything to TALK about vindictive or otherwise WOULD we? Heres a clue friend, if one DOESN`T wish to be villainized after their death...If one DESIRES a legacy of being viewed as being a minister or having decency and being of moral character....then LIVE that way. Wierwille SHOULD have had to face the music while he lived. I`ll be darned if you boogers will keep his crimes hidden now that he is dead.

I tried to time my presence after we arrived on grounds to when I thought there were the fewest people. I would go and get food and drink and go back to my tent before any who knew me might see me. I still was afraid of someone pointing their finger at me and yelling *possessed!* and having everyone turn on me with the same loathing and disgust in their eyes that I felt for myself. Ok...after all that....lol ....here is where it gets interesting.... :) One day I was walking back to my tent when the wierdest thing happened. Everything in my field of vision faded and was replaced with a crystal clear picture that obscured everything alse out....it was the most insane thing....It remained for a few seconds and then normal sights, smells and sound returned....Whew...I ....shook my head and laughed at at the rediculous picture that had just played before my eyes...and continued back to the tent. That evening I was walking across grounds...and it happened again. The same insane picture obscuring everything within my field of vision....I thought THIS time...*damn man, I must REALLY be losing it....and laughed...and continued on. That night I went to bed thinking that I had always wanted to ride in the motor cycle cavalcade, a tour of about two and a half hours that vp usually led once a year. They would travel and point out areas of interest and significance to the ministry around the county. I had been told once that if you arrived early enough that sometimes a rider would take a passenger. I thought dreamily...*I oughtta try that someday* as I fell asleep. Well 4 am bright and early the next morning my eyes flew open and try as I would, I couldn`t go back to sleep. So I got to thinking, I ought to wander over where the motor cycles are getting ready to leave and see if someone would let me ride with them. I really had no hope of anybody actually taking me, as spiritually dark as I believed myself to be, but thought it would be fun to admire all of the motorcycles any way. So I walked all the way to the parking lot where they were gathering. I found a fellow willing to take on a passenger. I was thrilled. Dr, and Mrs. Wierwille arrived with much pomp and celebration on the brand new Harley that people had pitched in and bought for him that year. We were all standing around receiving instructions and I was trying to stay back out of view, still uncomfortably aware that I wasn`t worthy to be in the presence of these great Christians. At the end of the meeting the man said....Dr says that Mrs. Wierwille is going to sit behind him and that there is room for someone in his side car. Would anybody like to ride? Well I see him look up right straight at me.... and nod his head...WHAT? Huh?? In stunned disbelief, I look over and notice that MY hand is up in the air...(how the heck did THAT happen??, I sure didn`t remember raising it) I wouldn`t have, I was terrified that with the founder and president`s hightened sense of spiritual awareness that I would surely be denounced and cast out. I numbly stumbled forward as he turned and mounted his bike and people are slapping a helmet on me and helping me into the cart.....inside I am terrified, I am screaming ...NO this is a mistake...you don`t know who I am..how evil I am..... Well Mrs. Wierwille turns to me with the most merry of smiles, possibly sensing my terror and begins to make me feel right at home...vp asked me a single question, grunted coldly and turned to his driving. I hunched down miserably scared and lonely feeling like surely he must know what a loser I was and that it was the grace of God that he didn`t throw me out. He never said another word.....and my discomfort grew acutely through out the ride. Mrs. Wierwille on the other hand kept up a merry chatter, sharing with me incidents from her childhood and places that held meaning for her as we drove through the county. I have to say that she was a wonder, an incredible hostess, doing her best to treat a guest like royalty even on the back of a motor cycle.....lol. God bless her heart, I do not think I could have endured that long cold ride without her cheerful demeanor. So we arrive back at headquarters and people are lining the streets, cheering and whistling madly...it seemed like the crowds went on for miles, people enthusiastically greeting us, admiring the new motor cycle. The thought struck my like a sledge hammer....there isn`t a single believer here in all of these tens of thousands of people that wouldn`t give anything they had to be right there where I was. My heart failed thinking of how many people were so much more worthy and deserving than I....when all of a sudden...the sun burst brilliantly through the heavy gloomy cloud cover, showering us with brilliant rays as we approached central grounds and the thickest crowds....the cheering the loudest and suddenly I understood....I felt it...a voice inside said...but YOU were chosen. I gasped it was almost like being hit physically as the vision shown to me the day before returned in blinding flashing technicolor!! It was the very same picture both times...of what was happening right then and there. A picture that when I saw it the day before was so outragiously unlikely, I had dismisssed it out of hand and mind. In the picture, I had been riding with Dr. and Mrs. Wierwille in the brand new motorcycle before wildly cheering crowds. I knew it, all of a sudden as the sun beamed down on me, as we motored through the roaring crowds....out of all of the people who could have been chosen for that privilege, Not ONLY had God chosen me that day, but he expressly showed me not just once, but TWICE ahead of time that he was going to do it so that I would know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was a speacial, personal message from him...that there could be no room left for doubt....as debased and wretched as I believed myself to be....that in SPITE of what that woman had said...that He God loved me and that there was no evil too great to separate me from his love. I bawled in joy, everybody had tears from the cold wind...but the ones coursing down my face were pure happiness. The icy coldness of fear and self loathing that had encased my heart for almost a year melted away to be replaced by the most intense joy. The humble reality of feeling the hand of God directly in my life. The fact that vp had not said two words to me, or the feeling that he may have dissaproved somehow ...made no difference. This was a special message, an *I love you* gift from God to someone who had been wounded so deeply that she was beyond the hearing of his voice. That he had gone to such extraordinary measures to bring me back to him was humbling. Geemany...how could I hate myself when he loved me enough to go to such extreme measures to heal? There was a photographer (our own hcw I believe) that took a professional picture of me at the end of the ride sitting in the side car beside wierwille.....the sun shining down gloriously down around us, but paled (I think) by the brilliance of my beaming smile. HCW somehow found out who I was and where I lived, and had a copy of that photo sent to me. Nobody knows the significance of that picture to me. Since then...whenever I have had trouble with people telling me I was a screw up, or not good enough, or that I didn`t have the heart to be corpes...was salt that had lost it`s savor...etc....I know...I know what God showed me that day....and it seems like the barbs couldn`t hurt me like they used to. Even now nearly 28 years after the fact. When ever I am feeling beaten down or struggling in life, no matter how much of a failure I may feel that I am, no matter what doubts arise as to my ability to handle what is piled on my plate......I just have to look at the picture to once again be reassured, to be warmed by the comfort and knowledge that God not only cares about us in a unique and personal way...but even more humbling....he is willing to go to such great lengths to show us that love.... I know that it sounds nuts...but sometimes it is hard to communicate why something is so uniquely personal and healing.

As I sat there, immersed in shame and self loathing, I decided that since I was told that I would die spiritually anyway if I returned to my home town, (because there were no believers there) I was dead already, and since there were no believers there, I reasoned that I would be no danger to anyone. I began the long trek to Alabama. I stopped at Rome City campus to visit my former leader who was completing her final year of training. I couldn`t tell her what had happened, I couldn`t tell her why I was going to Alabama. I was deathly afraid that she would detect my spiritually putrid nature. I think she knew that something bad had happened because she was incredibly kind, insisting that I spend a night there. She tried to reach out to help, but I had retreated deep inside my self loathing and contempt. I couldn`t even look other wholesome believers in the eye. I lived in terror worrying constantly that someone would detect my horrible secret while I was there and denounce me in front of the whole campus. I left as soon as I could get away. I arrived in Alabama and went to stay with my mother to await the physical death that I assumed was to soon to follow my spiritual death. I know that this all sounds so melodramatic, but I had been taught to believe that these people spoke for God, I was very naive, never dreaming that a Christian would deliberately or dishonestly hurt another. I assumed that the leader as I had been taught.....spoke for God. Well, my friend at Rome city did some checking and found out that wows had been sent to my city, and contacted them, asking them to get in touch with me. As ashamed as I was of myself, I still desperately wanted to be healed, to be pleasing to God, so when the wow called with an invitation, the lure was irresistable. I went to fellowship, half hoping that I might get deliverance from the evil that infested me, more terrified that they would detect my vileness. Imagine my surprise when I was greeted with kindness treated with love. I went to fellowship that year, trying hard to serve God, but inside still convinced of my depravity. I hated myself, I was ashamed. The ROA was approaching but I entertained no thoughts of going. I was afraid that somebody there would detect my secret. I was afraid of meeting the woman who had so visciously denounced me. Just before everyone left, I was asked to ride up with a mother that needed help driving and her young children, and would I give her a hand. I really was afraid to go, reluctant ...but wanted to help....so I agreed unenthusiastically to accompany her. I thought that maybe I could lurk in the tent and listen to the teachings from the big top over the loud speaker. I don`t know how to explain the depths of the self loathing and shame that had entirely engulfed every fiber of my being for almost an entire year, I was so deeply immersed in my mental anguish that I couldn`t hear, couldn`t accept that God could care for me. I just numbly plodded through each day, in shame.

I have one that I have only shared with a few trusted friends. This one takes a long time to set up. I even hesitate to share, as it is pretty dark in the telling, but then I sometimes wonder if when you have been wounded the deepest, that is when God arranges the most spectacular deliverance to reach out and salvage your shattered soul. I almost deleted all of the more miserable parts, but then, I think that diminishes the impact of what I was delivered out of and how far God will go to reach out to one of us when we are suffering and debased to the point where we can`t even look up to seek him. I have told the horrible side of this before, I guess now is the time to share the deliverance side. That being said.....If you want to skip down to the *God* part...go to the last post :) I was very young when I got involved in the ministry. I went out wow as soon as I turned 18. I was discouraged from going back home because I was told there weren`t any fellowships and that I would die *spiritually* if I returned. I moved into a way home with the city coordinator who was interim corp. I had a wonderful year being gently taught. The hardships of an Alabama girl learning to live in the brutal North Dakota climate were made bearable by the wonderful lady who lovingly cared for all of the believers under her watch. At the end of her year, She asked would I keep the house and accept the new interim leaders family as my room mates. I eagerly agreed, thinking that God had another year of action packed adventure and growth in store for me by allowing me to live once again with leaders. Whew, what a disapointment. The new leaders arrived and were immediately dissatisfied with every aspect of the house, the town and the believers. Our home that had been so carefully chosen with fellowship and classes in mind had a huge great room, it was centrally located to all of the believers, it was in one of the nicer sections of town. The Wife hated it, she hated, Fargo and most of all she hated me. The dishes weren`t to her liking, the cooking utensils not complete to her satisfaction...Though I paid one third of the rent, I was required to share a bed room with their 6 yr old daughter. Whatever I did, it was done wrong, why hadn`t I done it thus and such way. I was 18 maybe 19 yrs old at this time, and jobs in Fargo were scarce, especially for someone who had only been a waitress. There were two restaurants in town and I fortunately had a job on 3rd shift. Well, my job was evil because I was out after midnight, I was a loser because I couldn`t find anything better. She wanted the entire house vacumed by 8 am every morning. I would vacume every night before I would leave for work, but then they would eat pop corn and make a mess all evening. Well, I got off at 4 or 5 am and would come home and sleep. She would then wake me up at 8 snarling at me for not having taken care of my daily responsibility. I would be harrangued about my laziness and being a sluggard and my lack of believing in not having a job during decent hours....I would numbly vacume, exhausted mutely bearing the brunt of her criticizm. Broken because I had been taught that leadership spoke for God. That God told leadership how to best help us...and this lady let me know just what a screw up I was I couldn`t figure out how I had become such a bad person so quickly. I tried desperately to be the believer that God wanted me to be. It all came to a head one morning after about three months of meanness. I had once again vacumed the house gone to work and put in a full shift/ i had returned home and only slept an hour when the morning routine began. Something snapped inside and I told the woman to please leave me alone, that I would take care of my responsibility when I got up at noon. What was this? the lowly peon dared to talk back?Huh Oh my goodness, the woman went ballistic, she was incensed, and grabbed my leg and hauled until she pulled me off of the bed and I landed on the floor with a jolt. I jumped up and told her to leave me the he ll alone! OH geeeze The woman started shrieking hysterically to her terrified 6 year old daughter standing there to *leave the room* *This person was POSESSED*!!! Something died right then and there in side of me.....I was absolutely sickened with shame and horror. I will never forget the look of terror in the little girls eyes as she fled. Hell, I wished that I could have run away from me too. It of course never occured to me to doubt what this leader said. She was rebuking Satan and swearing at me. It was all surreal...like a night mare. I brokenly just started packing my things up. I started loading my car. I had some vague half formed plan of driving myself and my two dogs off of the red river bridge and drowning. I know that this sounds nuts...but I didn`t WANT to live if I had darkness inside of me. I did NOT want to be alive if I was possessed. I did NOT want to hurt any body with my evilness. Most of all I couldn`t live with the shame of all of the people who so lovingly nurtured me as a young Christian knowing how vile I had become. I cried brokenly, not understanding how I could go from a beloved valuable family member in the body of Christ in three short months to being possessed by satan. It took me an hour to gather my most important belongings. I left them the house, rented in my name with all of the deposits, the utilities and their deposits, the phone, the furniture, dishes etc. I took my most personal belongings while she followed me screamimg, rebuking, darned near frothing in her rage. I took my two dogs and got in my car and left. Broken ... I did not know how I had become possessed. I couldn`t understand how to not be possessed. I couldn`t go to anybody and TELL them that I was possessed. I was so desperatly alone...I couldn`t even turn to God...how dare I, if I were possessed? I was just a stench in his nostrils, a disapointment, a spiritually nasty vile being. I was horrified, I was ashamed, I loathed myself, I couldn`t live with being evil and not even knowing that I was evil and not having a clue as to how I had gotten that way ...when I had done my very best to be a doulos to God...what if I inadvertently infected someone else?? I drove to the Red river bridge and just sat there. I cannot describe the depths of the despair that engulfed me. I wanted my bible. I wanted to seek the familiar comfort there, only to realize in horror that I had set it down as I was loading and had left it. My beautiful cambridge bible that I struggled for so long to save for and that so I dearly loved. Was back at the house. I just didn`t dare return for it. I found out later that she gave it away declaring that it was the PROOF that I was posessed or I never would have left it. I was stunned when the gal who had been given it, the next year at roa .....offered the tattered water soaked worn book that had once been my most prized possession. The dearly loved book that I had handled with the utmost care and gently stored in the box when not in use had been ruined it. It was devistating. Well anyway, as I sat by the bridge deciding whether to drive the car into the river to protect the rest of the body of Christ from my vileness....too ashamed to seek help, too filled with self loathing to ask God...

I was going to let him speak for himself Dooj, and Tom, I don`t think Dove ever mentioned where he was (W is close enough though) , that being said, nothing wrong with sp corpes, I am one as well, and there were a whole unique set of problems associated with that.....but even so...that can`t possibly give one the same perspective, or exposure as those who actually participated in and completed in the corpes program, as those whom lived with and interacted with the leaders, or even was a leader themselves..... To claim that ones perspective is greater than the people whom were actually present to the teachings and pressures, or to understand the wow field and the commitment level expected, what the standards one was held to...the manipulation applied etc...or to believe that one has any idea of what leadership was like outside of your geographic area is simply not realistic. To insist that second hand information is a credible source to try to discredit others first hand accounts of abuse, mistreatment, and trauma at the hands of twi leaders while involved is simply not reasonable. I don`t care if you do believe that wierwille was the greatest teacher since the first century....it is when someone tries repeatedly to suppress information to the contrary, or try to discredit people telling their stories that are at odds with this perception, or tries to intimidate or bully into silence someone with jeering or insinuations that someone is a liar or sick or crazy in order to lessen the impact of their testimony. That is when I have a problem.

Is anybody ELSE sickened with revulsion at the *deal* Krys` son was offered??? Krys, thank God for your son`s integrity and honor. I don`t know how many of us could have stood up to the mog under that kind of intimidation and pressure.

Raf, is there any way that you could go to a remote location for a few days or week? That was what I had to do. Get away from everybody and everything that would give me access to cigarettes. I stayed at an old cabin with no car keys, the nearest store being 30 miles away. It has been 21 years, and sometimes in my dreams, I am still a smoker. Good luck!

Dove, please....this was information that you yourself shared in these forums. Do you not remember? As for you THINKING that Ilearned this information from another poster...I have no idea what you are talking about . Number one, that would be sneaky and mean, and number two, I try very hard NOT to discuss someone behind their back, and number three, I would not divulge what a third party alleged. If I am mistaken, please feel free to correct my misunderstanding of what you wrote.

Rocky, it was indeed wd himself that shared that info on a thread a while back.

Dove, the only thing that I THINK that I know, (and please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that you never went through the wow or way corpes program, and that you spent your time in twi in the same geographic area. This information I gathered from your own personal public posts here. I do not presume to know anything about you outside of what you yourself personally chose to share here.