rascal

Oh guys....my PET peeve. Even the guys that didn`t mean to be boogers were conditioned to believe that their wives were emotional creatures, who`s feelings would allow satan in the door. COnstant vigilance must be maintained, a distancing of ones self from their emotions in order to be firm and protect themselves, their wives and their children. Even WORSE...the wives...omg it is hard to type this...but I was taught to believe the above, and that if my husband loved me, that he would protect me from myself, because my emotions rendered me a danger and unstable. That given the chance, as a woman, I would lead mybeloved down the same path the eve led Adam. I honestly believed that if my husband ever struck me, it was because I deserved it. I should have shut up, I should have behaved myself. My perception and opinion was simply not to be considered, because who knew when it was a trick. I was warned of dire consequences if I ever got fat or ugly....and get this...I believed that I would have deserved them. Folks, what they taught the young men was despicable. What they taught the young women much much worse. We were conditioned to believe that any abuse suffered that we had coming. If we were good wives, if we took care of our men, we would be ok. Any troubles, and our only resource was to pray, to placate, to gently entreat... It was a terrible terrible thing to do to people.

All of it...every stinkin bit of it. The stuff that I questioned, I thought Satan was tricking me to doubt. The behavior I objected to, I endured because not to meant that I was stiff necked. Anything completely offensive or incomprehensible, I just assumed the lack was in my own understanding, and I would put on the back burner, like they said, until the day that I would be spiritually mature enough to handle it. :(

I guess rocky that you have a point. To reply, means validation. I guess I really DON`T care what a troll has to say.

Hey Bell, I edited my stuff before I saw your post to explain ...hopefully making my meaning a little clearer. No ignoring didn`t work, they found new and better ways to disrupt. Notifying paw was working. ...the forum rules being tightened and enforced....and now HE is under attack and under fire because the bullies are crying foul and whining discrimination for their view point and stirring the chit up getting others who are completely oblivious as to the necessity of the measures being enacted, or the reasons for so many peoples outrage.... to question and hassle paw, the moderators, the posters. People want it stopped. It is happening, but that isn`t good enough, now everybodies a bunch of meanies. Ignoring the crap, while it sounds good in theory, didn`t work in twi, turning a blind eye doesn`t work in our communities...and it certainly hasn`t been working around here.

If I might add...NOR were you there to witness how many many posters asked politely, even begged dove and oldies to please please stop. To please show some respect just this one time and with hold their customary responses. The pleas went completely unheeded. Dove and Oldies continued to savage that thread and the posters on it until pawtucket and the moderators were forced to move in and delete the offending posts. Which is what has precipitated all of this. Dove and oldies, and even rhino, (for different reasons) want to make it about something else altogether, and they have rallied support from the unsuspecting. Some of you guys are critisizing the wrong folks.

Go ahead, congratulate yourself for being above the fray....real good advice when YOU aren`t the one who is relentlessly hounded, your every post questioned, your veracity questioned, your motives, etc. Ignore these guys and they place the bait for their buddies to move in and take their swings.... Try understanding form the view point of being hounded until you finally have to just leave the forums all together because your view point alone is enough to dissolve a whole thread....I am not talking about with points countering a post but with simple nasty insinuations ......in my case like ..... well we would expect something like that from you...or you are a lying psychotic so what...or well you need to seek psychiatric help to attend to this anger problem with vp because you are a threat to yourself and a danger to your children.... never even addressing the subject of the thread or any other post. Damn it, I was shut up for a couple of decades. I don`t think it is fair that I have to shut up here because these guys don`t want what I have to say to have merit. As has been demonstrated...when ignored...these bullies refocus on a new target. They are trolls with no other purpose than eliminating the flow of information. Sometimes, a bully has to be stopped when simple ignoring them only escalate the nastiness. I have had enough. After all of these years of trying to reason, of trying to be nice, of trying to explain my position, I am swinging back. There just isn`t any pleasing some of you folks. You finally have a community at large who has had enough....and I say, it`s about damned time..

I can verify that exercise doesn`t lead to weight loss. I have strenuous workouts twice a week in karate class...I am talking exercise till you drop, sweat soaked drag your bu tt the car and need help from the kids to get to the house afterwards tough many times...lol I didn`t lose an ounce...I lost a little girth, have built a lot of muscle, am in the best physical shape of my life...but I am still big as a barn. I honestly thought burning all of those calories and being careful about what I consumed would do it :( P.S. I have been wanting to share every time I have read the title of this thread......that the BEST example of how to lose weight that I have seen is just recently when my daughter lost over three hundred lbs of unsightly weight ..... when she dumped loser scummy boy friend....:)

Doggone it Abby, I like you. I know that you are a really cool person, have awsome, insight, are a great mom, with terrific kids. I remember our marvel when we discovered together the lost dunes of your childhood. Our pride and joy as we watched our aarons land their own fish. I really really like you. I just think that things from your perspective are entirely different than they are from my perspective. I think that could be true of everyone here. I know that you are trying to be balanced and a peace maker. I just don`t think that is possible when you have a few people who want nothing more than to cause disruption and attack posters. Your point was considered, please don`t be frustrated and dismiss me because I didn`t agree.

BANG! ;)

This thread has raised some questions in my mind as well. Incidents come back that you dismiss at the time, now have a more ominous connotation. When our ordained tc`s wife left him. I felt so bad for him. We were young, not long married, my spouse and I would go and help him any way we could. I grieved for his suffering and pain, we helped him with his house work, wanting to do anything to alleviate his burden. One thing he did, would be to talk about how in need he was of *relief* ... It came up kind of often. It seems like when I expressed my wish to help....and I can`t remember my husband was ever in the room when he did this. Not having been indoctrinated, it never ever dawned on me that he could seek his relief with anyone other than his wife. Lol..I just patted him on the arm and told him how sorry I was. It was always wierd, but then I thought that it was a measure of his confidence in my spirituality that he felt he could be candid and discuss these things. I wonder now, in reading these threads...especially after Krys` account ....that since I was corpes spouse, if I was supposed to pick up on these not so subtle hints. The fellow was never came out and said *do me* so maybe I AM just misconstruing an innocent man`s suffering.

I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation, of your perception of the people here, your lack of appreciation for what people are trying to accomplish....even the boards themselves. But then I guess I just didn`t figure that was what you really wanted to hear. I also figured that even were I to voice it, that you would construe my lack of appreciation for your perspective in this particular matter as a personal attack. You appear to be dissatisfied with people not performing to your specification, you have voiced your dissatisfaction with these forums. You come charging in at the 11 th hour having little or no understanding of the difficulties, the personalities, the issues... naievely declaring everyone needs to be a little nicer....something that would work with reasonable adults, something that has been tried for 8 years, but in reality has simply allowed bullies intent on kicking as much sand up peoples faces on the play ground as they can, and to run rough shod over everyone....because people haven`t wanted to be *mean* stand up and stop them....You finally have a community at large that has declared ENOUGH! OK, so you don`t agree...I don`t know what you are going to do, but I sure don`t think you should be blaming everybody else for not seeing things your way, flinging your own insults and storming off, is helpful either. There`s your response..happy? It isn`t anywhere close to the reasons you surmised for a lack of interest or participation in your thread. P.S. I have much I would like to say, but I feel that you don`t really want to entertain my perspective, but rather explain why it isn`t valid, so why even bother with dialog?

It is. That is exactly what has happened to so many that some of the apologists want silenced, and why the community now has a problem. I don`t know what you think is the answer to bullying when people refuse to abide by the rules of the forum. Rules are pretty clear...you either abide by them or leave. It has been my experience that the offender is given ample chances to change the offending behavior if one wishes to remain a participant...

My Goodness, just look at the lives of the men who designed that program. Look at the viscious damage that they inflicted on people, all the while convinced that they were God`s elect, that they were in the center of God`s will. Research, and prayer, and applications of principles and attention to details did not help these fellows to be men of the spirit. They hurt a lot of people...I am thinking that they missed the boat...and now a new generation it would seem has to learn their lessons the hard way. I feel so bad for the participants...sigh what a waste.

You know....the whole system to me seems designed to complicate what should have been very very simple Love God and Love your neighbor...when you do that...everything else seems to fall into place. Those way corpes principles brought it all back... I remember my twi mindset....take this class for all of the answeres..go wow to grow with God...take more classes to become mature spiritually...go corpes to learn how to serve God for a life time...follow these principles to grow...apply these keys to have greater understanding...obey leadership so as not to be stiff necked...tithe to have prosperity...witness it is your duty.... It was all down to formulas....master this, do that follow these instructions and you will arrive spiritually. A + B = C My decade plus in twi was wrought with such frustration ... knowing that in spite of applying every single rule for faith and practice, every instruction given for spiritual growth...prayer...tithing...study...abs...participation in every program possible...I knew that the spiritual *connection* just wasn`t there...I would apply EVERY thing I knew in order for God to preform as he was required....it was an immutable law...don`tcha know...and still was missing the mark. I`m telling you, it took getting away all of that....to get humble and allow God to work ... getting rid of the ego of I believe this I have done that you are required to preform thus, mindset before I felt that connection and saw my spiritual life soar. I think these guys with their programs actually lead people into the complications that will interfere with the simplicity of what is required for ones personal walk.

Eyes, I`d like to hear your angel story some time :)

AWWWW....The kids n I just had a good cry :)

Groucho, I agree. There is an agenda. For a long time, the most ardent of the wierwille supporters called people liars who talked about ANY kind of abuse...then the teachings that were used to enforce and ensure compliance declared non existent. The people who suffered were then maligned as having been foolish or deserving some how..their motices called into question...As more and more people stepped forward and said...hey wait, that happened to me too....switch tactics again, attack the credibility of the person, attack their veracity....when the person responds, the battle begins, the fur flies...the testimony is buried and the thread gets moved to the soap opera basement. Mission accomplished. Heck one of them even admitted to enjoying stirring the post, watching the thread degenerate, smugly proclaiming that most of the time nobody ever knew he was behind it. It was deliberate, it was focused, and it was really really mean. The forum rules were tightened to where stalking and name calling were eliminated. Simply amazing how many of these posters dropped right off the map when they weren`t allowed to be mean and disruptuve. I think that says a lot about why they were here. You are down to the last few, who have found yet a new way to circumnavigate the rules to cause disruption. Cry foul, whine about persecution for their pov, argue semantics and legality and presto...disruption...fighting...people step in not understanding that this is yet another tactic.... I think that people who are here with a purpose to simply limit what others share are a problem.

Thanks Rocky, you make a good point.

Dove, you took one of my posts out of context and built your whole argument. Did you or did you not confirm what ex 10 wrote?? It was your confirmation of that information that I based MY statement on, thank you very much. Your treatment of myself and others has been calculated, hateful and mean. There is no justification or excuse acceptable for the way you chose to treat people. Oh, and your a lousy lawyer too. Take your arranged exhibits designed to support your false premiss that lead to your rediculous conclusions, and shove em.

Rum runner, absolutely, I am glad that you brought things up from the guys pov. How absolutely crushing to discover that your wife was required to service the mogs....to be explained your choices at gun point. Good lord, look at the heartbreaking account of poor Tom Mullins when he couldn`t get his wife to leave the mog. I agree the fellows suffering and indignities could be every bit as humiliating and shattering. I just tend to post from my own understanding as a gal. Absolutely Watered Garden. We were indoctrinated to submit completely. To not consider, to stuff any emotions or dislike down way down deep and pretend that we didn`t feel or cry or greive.... because we all knew that our emotions, our 5 senses were what Satan would use to deceive, to lead ourselves, our husbands, and our children away from God and to everyones destruction. We HAD to depend on our husbands and leaders to keep us in line, because our greater emotions made us unstable. If you disagreed, if you disobeyed, you were stiff necked, and God wouldn`t bless you...Damned right we obeyed, damned right. God forbid you were a strong woman, or voiced your opinion either. I had two friends thrown out through the years for being lesbians on no greater evidence than that. The claim (as many times has been said) that *no one held a gun to our heads* is so lacking in empathy and understanding. A gun or any other form of physical force.....most of us could and possibly would have fought back against. One just COULDN`T be true to themselves or stand up when things felt wrong or when the action required to be loathsome beyond what one felt was beyond their endurance to handle...when it was opresented as GOD`S requirements....the refusal of which would remove one from his hedge of protection....would result in satan allowed access to your life....of impending death or worse...possession.....One just brokenly sucked it up, put all questions on the back burner, and recited retemories to mask and smother the protests....to shut out the part of us that was screaming denial inside. What a sick sordid mess "(

I guess maybe I HAVE been spending too much time with kids of late..lol

That is it oen. There were other accounts one of them, of the tower of babel. I don`t remember the others. Absolutely Bell. I am of the same opinion. Jesus said that the most important thing was love God and love your neighbor....as far as I am concerned ....nothing else matters, what brand or flavor of religion you chose, seems to me to be dictated by what you personally are comfortable with. I have seen what I consider to be very spiritual people of all denominations and beliefs. I think that God works within the parameters of what we allow....that our spirituality is determined directly by how well we apply love God and love your neighbor. We have all seen first hand how spiritually bankrupt people can be whenever they place the priority on anything else...even studying scriptures.

Hey oen... I`d like to share the perspective of my neighbor. ...retired methodist minister, one time member of the house of representatives, missionary to china...attorney...etc. What if...the bible was simply an account of how God dealt with a particular group of people at a particular time in history? Or that if he really did inspire men to write ...wouldn`t it have had to have been in a form understandable and acceptable...(ie greatly simplified) for sheep herders. Would he be confined to the capacity to understand and comprehension of a sheep herder of 5000 years ago with people of today who have a greater understanding of mathematics, science, biology, astronomy, etc. I have to wonder if maybe God deals with us in an ever changing way depending on our ability to comprehend and understand. Is he only limited to the parameters within which we ourselves establish? As far as accuracy?? Well I read a book where a fellow said that many of the accounts in the old testament are simply adaptations of older stories found else where. My memory is very fuzzy here, but it seems as if historically, judean prisoners were supposed scholars and required to translate them from cunioform (sp?) texts (fancy word for clay tablets I think) or some such thing, and this is where the stories about the flood, the tower of babylon, and such were learned. I have to wonder if God really needed animals slaughtered in sacrifice, or did people THINK that was what God wanted because that is what everyone else was doing at that time to worship their Gods. Did we really need a savior...or did we need a way that we could accept, in order to give up the laws. practices and concepts of ancient times? Can God really not stand the sight of us without the technicalities of sacrifice? Or is he just having to work within the parameters of what we will accept and allow? Just questions that come to my mind.

I want to add that maybe the reason that the perception that *my side* seems to be dealt with leniently is because when pm`d to remove an offensive post, I DO. No fuss, no argument......but because that isn`t dragged into the forums... I don`t whine about being supressed......it appears that some folks get preferential treatment. When moderated or suspended, the only way the rest of the board knows is if the one in *time out* tells someone :) Maybe because we don`t .... and moan over mistreatment, or drag it into the public forums....but instead change the offending behavior when the moderators or paw asks us to .... it gives the illusion that one side never gets persecuted for particular view points. It has been my experience that pawtucket and the moderators attempt to be scrupulously fair, all we have to do is abide by the rules. To indicate that Dove and his pals haven`t been given more than fair treatment with ample opportuntiy and given the benefit of the doubt time and again is to cast aspersions on Paw and the moderators in my opinion.

(((Abby))) Thank you for understanding. I wanted to edit my post about a *load of crap* but got booted from spouses computer. What I SHOULD have said....and wish I HAD said...was that you might be mistaken in the perception that *my side* getting leniency...I apreciate you not taking offense.