rascal

Awwwwwwwwww (((Raf)))) What a wonderful suprise!! Looks like you quit smoking just in time :)

:D

It isn`t a disbelief of Jonny, it was more of discussion of other possible interpretations. Having had simialar experiences, I just wondered if the confidence that he gained as a christian gave him the peace to claim control, rather than paralysed by the fear. Heck, Whether demons or no, it sounds like God was at work to me.

Flying, yeah but only once or twice. The best one was when I climbed into a box kite and soared above my back yard. For years afterwards, I dreamed of getting one and trying it out for real. Lol, imagine my dissapointment when I finally got my hands on one, and it was only a couple feet tall and flimsy paper :) The single most re occuring dream that I have is tornadoes and I am trying to get everyone to shelter. That and losing track of one of the kids :)

What about those of us who were just as indoctrinated, who never saw a class, just heard it on tape. I don`t think hypnotism with the eyes would be effective.

True Rhino, I guess I was looking at it from the view point of God able to make something that someone intended for evil, turn out for good.

THAT was nicely said Mark :)

Really finallyunderstand? It was my impression that the exhortation to examine the fruit in a persons life, was given as a measuring stick where by we determine whether a person is *of the spirit* or *of the flesh* whether or not they had any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, and whether we should be around them for any reason. I don`t think God meant us to be stupid about false prophets or wolves in sheep`s clothing, or he wouldn`t have given us the tools to recognize and address such people.

Joseph being sold into Egypt is a great way to understand twi involvement.

oh ((((Ben))) Oh gosh, I am sorry. It was horrible for us, but gosh you poor children. At LEAST I was an adult dealing with this crap. I agree with you, TWI enabled horrible people to be even more horrible, only this time under the guise and protection of God. I can only cringe when I read your account, I know that I probably would not have been any more capable of standing up for my children and myself than your mom was, as despicable as this sounds. Not because I lacked courage, not because I wasn`t outraged, not because my heart didn`t break, not because I was afraid of any man. What I could not and was not willing to do was go against what I was taught God required. I was so broken down, that I did not think that I could survive without God, which was the only alternative to defying the abuse, defying of the husband, even if he was grossly out of line meant that we would be defying God. We were taught that if we obeyed, even when the husband or the leader was wrong, that God would bless and honor us for our heart, he would see that everything would be ok. I was taught that if I ever left the ministry or my husband for any reason, that the children and I would become possessed and die. We were taught, and believed that we were shielding and protecting our babies from spiritual possession and death, that the difficulties of living with twi crap was far more preferable than an eternity of no spiritual rewards for you guys. Fortunately for my kids we left while they were young. Even then, we still had a great deal to unlearn as far as parenting. We all were so trapped. I am so sorry for what you and the other way children endured because of our collective stupidity. I can remember thinking that way kids were SO lucky to be raised in the word by believer parents. I think that I believed you would all grow up to become some sort of spiritual super heros :(

I was thinking along the same lines. I used to have horrible night mares from the time I was a child. Yes, even the demons, swooping and diving around me, sometimes being stuck under water, a mean baby sitter.... In time, I learned to recognize a night mare when it was starting and wake myself up. When I was in twi, I rebuked satan in my dream and could wake up. After I left twi...I`d recognize it was a dream and just wake myself up. I was wondering if it could be just a recognition and triggering thing. I just know that in my dreams, the rebuking was as effective as pulling the corners of my eyes back to awaken myself. My kids are vivid dreamers as well.

Geisha, much to consider. I only know that I DON`T know. I see the hand of God at work, I can not deny his existence, yet I know nothing except that I am willing to follow the two great commandments as a starting place. I can see that the knowledge that we aquired in twi, seems to have been also instrumental in embueing us with an arrogance and pride that allows us to do as we please, because we are in the grace administration, hurt whom we will, because anyone who doesn`t believe as we do has earned our contempt. Our pride, our knowledge seems to be a ticket that we have purchased that will see us through this life spiritually, and into the next. Scritpuraly, this doesn`t seem to be supported.

Pond, I think you only see one side of the issue. I made no decision about who is to recieve eternal life, your accusation of me doing that is an attempt to dishonestly paint my position. You read galatians 5 and it says very clearly that vp has no inheritance. What you are telling me is that in order to accept your theology, I have to ignore an entire chapter of scripture. I am searching for answeres here, not a reiteration of twi retoric, unsubstantiated by scripture. I think that we have been taught wrong. Come on, can`t you just feel the warm fuzzies from God when we read of the instantaneous death of annanias and saphira? How is that for *not hating his own* I think there is more to spirituality and understanding than the knowledge that

Some pretty broad assumptions there Pond. I am not so sure you me n vp all actually ARE part of the body of Christ. Galatians 5 says that vpw anyway, isn`t going to have ANY inheritance in the kingdom of God PERIOD! How many of us will there be who called on the name of Jesus, prophesied and cast demons in his name that are going to be told to *depart*..denied entry into heaven.. *for he knew us not*? You talk of love and forgivness, as do so many twi influenced people...yet I have seen a hardness for any whom don`t agree doctrinally, that is in direct contrast to what folks profess. I don`t think any of us know as much as we think we do.

Precisely Geisha, I had really hoped that this could be explored without simply it as a spring board into somebody`s favorite platform. I am not interested in TWI`s version of why it just doesn`t matter one way or another. I think that there is ample evidence that there are different standards for different actions. I have to wonder if living life according to twi doctrine really COULD rob us of our chance to enter that gate. I think that it bears examination.

Why thank you, I could just FEEL the love and compassion of Christ just ooozing from that last post :) I suppose hurt and suffering and pain and damage ARE the result after all of being used, betrayed, assaulted, robbed raped, and cast aside like so much garbage...shrug Maybe that is why God takes such a dim view of it, and quite possibly the consequences of doing these things in his name are so dire.

Groucho, it isn`t that I wanted to believe the snow on the gas pumps, it was that I didn`t want to believe that anyone would lie about God. I wanted to believe that he loved me, that I had a family that loved me, that I was important and needed in the spiritual battle.

Suniesis, I have great respect for your understanding of the scriptures. Have you read the manuscripts about Judas? I can`t remember the details, but there are many many manuscripts that were rejected by the counsel that chose which ones were to be cannonized. In this book as I remember reading about it, Judas was actually a hero. It was necessary for Jesus to be betrayed, in order for the new birth to be available. Jesus asked Judas to do it, basically is the gist as I remember it. Any chance this fits in with the scriptures and love that Jesus displayed?

I don`t think that we can condemn them to hell. I DO think however, that we can know what their hearts were by examining the fruit in their lives. Galatians 5 says point blankk that anyone who does what wierwille does....is of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Whether we forgive them or love them or hate them...that is what they are and the consequences of being who they are. They themselves have earned the condemnation of God. I think that in the scriptures, there are instances of great love, compassion and forgivness demonstrated, likewise there are seem to be situations where there were no exhortations to forgive or love...but even warnings to stay away from certain people. The doctrine we were taught of all love, all forgiveness, no consequences because we are in the grace administration WERE taught by a very evil person who wished to seek coorboration and justification for refusing the walk of a christian.

Well done Raf! Say, if weight gain is a problem, or finding a different activity to replace places where you smoked...have you considered starting some kind of new physical regime?

I don`t think we are on the same page here. You are talking about a man who repented and did good. I am talking about a person who did great evil, after he supposedly was working for a God, who did great evil in God`s name, who led people away from God...who NEVER repented...guess I figure this is a whole different ball of wax. Preach on about Pauls greatness..I agree with you...but that isn`t what I am talking about here.

Um Pond...so what ??? You are talking about Guys who REPENTED when confronted by God....Paul REPENTED! So did David....they THEN became men who changed history...how could that in anyway compare with a guy who spent a lifetime of inflicting great evil throughout his entire lifetime, and never repented or made amends.

Thanks Polar bear, I agree. VPW to me, is the epitome of the pharacees that Jesus so detested. He, like they were polished, well educated, presented himself as the leader, the connection to God. Did the pharacees teach the scritpture of their day? Did they extort money and goods in God`s name? I saw a neat thing on the history channel one time. (I have shared this before) but it fits here as well. There are STILL sepulchers...above ground tombs that are painted white in the Jeruselem cemetary. The guide was telling the tv host that the REASON the sepulchers were painted white was for when the person inside had died of a disease that might be spread. It was a warning, a warning to the living and healthy to avoid contact, to not get near because the disease inside could still infect and kill. How telling is that?? To the people of Jeruselem that understood the significance of the whited sepulcher...the clean white shiny exterior, was filled with infectious disease and death on the inside. Sounds like your description of VPW to me, Polar Bear. Precisely Mr. Ham, and well said. Geisha, you bring up some very interesting points to consider, I need some time to digest a few things.

T&O..Jesus wasn`t angry when he chased the money changers out of the temple with whips and flipping over their tables? Or Jesus telling the pharacees that they were filled with death and disease inside while being pretty and shiny on the outside.... Aren`t there passages that talk about the things that God hates?? A proud look, a haughty something or other...Didn`t he instruct the judeans to kill entire nations of people...not only every single man woman and child, but their cattle and belongings as well. Doesn`t sound like all loving all of the time to me. Like wise, it seems to me like there are stuff that moves one out of the category of screw up needing forgiveness and evil that needs to be condemned. ISn`t there a list of behaviors that God lists and then tells us to stay away from people like that? I question the accuracy of our understanding of spirituality, and what our responsibility is, when it is based on a guy`s teachings, a man of the flesh who wanted to excuse, justify, and facilitate great evil. A man who drugged and raped our sisters, who destroyed the lives and reputations of any who failed to meet his requirements, no matter how base.

OK socks, God despises the sin...at what point does the sin cause God to turn someone over to darkness? At what point is the point of seared conscience reached? Is that why Jesus couldn`t stand the pharacees? It seems like there are going to be people that approach Jesus for entry into the kingdom of heaven, and in spite of knowing who he is, having prophesied in his name, having cast demons out in his name....they are going to be told to *depart for I knew you not* They weren`t given the opportunity to repent then. It seems like there is a point where Even God in all of his love gives up.