rascal

Yeah Waysider, what`s a few deaths, rapes, aborted children, destroyed families more or less when we had the opportunity to learn from a plagerizing, drunken, raping, lying, low life man of the flesh like wierwille to teach us? Wheres that troll sign?

Well Jeff, I think that the scriptures that we learned...I don`t think it was ever about teaching us...I think those scriptures were simply the bait that lured us into the snare. Proverbs says that in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey. The bait has to be mighty convincing, it has to grab our attention and focus so that we don`t see the trap hidden beneith until we have been drawn in, and it is sprung. We then stupidly wander around telling ourselves....but the bait was so good...man it sure tasted good while I was eating it. You even have folks try to still claim that the bait was so good and we should be appreciative....lol No thanks, it was only bait placed in a trap by predators, to lure the unwary. As far as us being tools? I think that scriptures and God were tools as well...so I suppose that we are in very good company.

Sigh...Geisha, I know...that`s the way he is. The problem is me. I still feel like the *dog* that feed under the table hoping for dropped scraps. I will get there, intellectually I know it. In my heart, I have a far way to go before I have the peace or understanding of actually knowing Jesus.

If you wouldn`t apply yourself to my *we* there would be no need to be offended. Let`s try not to borrow a reason to get our panties in a twist, shall we? :)

Sigh...The thing is...these guys claim to stand in the gap for us... It was all about what THEY were doing for us.... Our spirituality was based on what we did, our works... Our safety, our growth, our understanding, God`s ability to work or not, was all determined by following immutable laws, applying principles, obeying leadership...the list was endless. When things went south, when we got sick, or bad things happened to us, some obscure thing would be dug up to explain how our understanding or God couldn`t be wrong....We personally had blown it some where, had left the door open. We didn`t need the shepherd because our leader was standing in the Gap. We didn`t need to be meek of humble because we were super conquerers. Our spirituality was not determined by following the two commandments or walking as Jesus did....our spirituality was determined by the scripture that we studied, the principles applied, the keys utilized, amounts tithed, witnessing time, programs completed....We didn`t have to obey the rules, follow Jesus example because this was the grace administration, anything was lawful as long as we could handle it. The whole twi thing was based on us and our works to achieve spirituality, us us US!! Rather than allowing God to work and to will of his good pleasure. I think we had an Ego problem. I think that we were taught to look to these guys for protection and guidance, I think that we were our own sufficiency.

Jeff, I just don`t know. It is a humbling thing isn`t it? I mean we were God`s super heros, the *A* team spiritual warriors on a mission for God. We sacrificed, we witnessed, we moved, we invested our finances, our time and our youth. Then we find out ......... we were wrong. That the money that we sent to move God`s word was used to finance abortions, shopping trips, luxury vacations, a bus that women were raped on, the drugs that were given to knock them out, booze, etc. Naturally we still want the ego stroke of being the saviors of the world.... It is tough...really really tough to look at things honestly and realize what we promoted, what people bought into because of our earnest presence, our integrity and love....was what lured people into a trap, a snare. Not only did our decisions screw our lives up....we led others into darkness and even death :( We were like some kind of obscene carnival barker. The people that we witnessed to, were abused. Folks that we promised all of the answers to any question or problem that they had.... were used, were mistreated, some raped, their families ripped apart, some even died :( For years I wrestled with how could God allow this. To this day I am suffering a crisis in my faith. I cannot trust with the complete child like faith that I once had. The things that I did while in, the family members that I blew off and ignored because they were simply conduits for Satan to be avoided lest I be tricked away from the word....cause me shame. I am humbled, that God seems willing to work in my life, in spite of my arrogance and stupidity. My only option is to try to be the best person that I can be for the remainder of my days. This can`t fix the bad that I have done, but at least I maybe I won`t be causing any more harm.

Does it seem to anybody else like we were systematically distanced from Jesus, the true shepherd? Does it seem like to anybody else that studying, witnessing, tithing, participation in programs, obedience to men of God, replaced the walk of the spirit? That scripture memorized, classes run, programs completed became the measure of ones spirituality, rather than fruit of the spirit? Formulas, and principles, replaced our walk of the spirit.

Shaz, made what I consider a profound point on the thread about our leaders claiming to *stand in the gap* for the believers. I can`t believe that I didn`t see this before. She pointed out how that contrary to the assertion of the mogs claimed to stand in the gap for us....Jesus Christ was the one who`s job it was, and who acrtually accomplished it at great cost.... to stand in the gap for the flock. Light bulbs, bells, whistles and sirens going off .... Does this not make absolute sense?? Thinking back now on how Jesus, was relegated to simply a name invoked at the end of a prayer, or in a demand for power.... In the classes that we took, I see how we were systematically distanced from the true shepherd, the protector of the flock, the one vigilant one responsible for our safety. In hind site, I see how classes, knowledge, study, replaced the actual spiritual walk of compassion, kindness, and love as the measuring stick where by our spirituality was gauged. Finally, and most importantly.... VPW and LCM often claimed that they were standing in the gap for the believers!! Geemany... this wasn`t their job..D`oh But since Jesus had been relegated to a non active role of sitting at God`s right hand, with no interaction here, little more than a name of power to be invoked....a name who`s recitation of was our ticket to heaven one day...I suppose SOMEBODY had to take his place :( Damn, they tried to step into his shoes, (as IF ) Apparently THEY believed that they were the ones who stood in the gap to protect us from the evil that could befall the flock. By this statement, it would seem that THEY saw themselves as the shepherd. Instead of the commandments that Jesus gave, it became their rules, their studying, their programs, following their orders that would keep us safe, and help us grow, give us access to the things of the spirit.... No freaking wonder things were so farked up :(

Wow, great point Shaz, How fricken scary is it that??? Seriously....I think that deserves a thread all on it`s own...

Well, this probably has nothing to do with anything. But as far as where the cancer began and why....I just remembered something. I had a horse that within 6 months of symptoms of minor irritation appearing, had an eye removed. She never showed any symptoms otherwise, and was ok for about a year, and then swelling began below the affected area....and within a month, a fat, sleek, healthy pony withered away to skeletal nothing. It appears that the problem began with the eye. It seems to me if the cancer had begun anywhere else and moved to the eye, she would have shown symptoms earlier. I suppose VP`s cancer could have followed that route, having had nothing to do with the unhealthy, amoral lifestyle that he led. All I DO know, is that it is a horrible way to die. That this was used as a propaganda tool to shame, and cause grief to the innocent believers who were accused of breaking his heart.....that it was used as a tool for Geere to seize power and accuse the corpes of all being possessed.......and FINALLY and probably the most disappointing and saddening of all is ..... that even in the very end, Wierwille couldn`t show his weakness, refused to be honest with the people whom dearly loved and prayed for him daily...who had supported and believed fully in him.... He felt he had to play the invincible mog till the very end, not wanting people to know of his vulnerability, not wanting people to know that he had been mistaken in his doctrine concerning devil spirits and believing,, unable to trust people to love and pray for him :(

A little late, I hope that it was a good one :)

That sounds like a great idea. The thing is, trying to figure out who meets the criteria. No matter how careful you try to be, someone is always bound to be left out, or feelings hurt, or one person will have a problem with another and not want that one in...yadda yadda. Then there is the poster that comes in and decides that they enjoy the attention received by betraying the trust of the rest of the group I would seriously love to see this happen. I just don`t know if it is possible :(

Wow Wash n Wear... I am sure glad that you are still with us.

You know?? trying to equate wierwilles rabid Nazi proclivities with fiscal conservatism, is as intellectually dishonest as equating the seduction, drugging and raping of teenaged christian followers as a simple error in judgement.

The pharacees that Jesus condemned at the temple. He was polished up on the outside, presenting a facade of spirituality and wholesomeness. A man that had all of the answeres to life and Godliness. In reality, he was using the respect garnered as God`s representative to steal from people in the name of God. Oh..oh ..OH...can I change my answere??? EVE!!! I wanna say EVE!!! Just like Eve....VPW asked us did God REALLY say thus and such...got us questioning what we knew of God...cause of COURSE we had all been taught wrongly in the churches.....He got us to consider that we didn`t really have to follow God`d instructions...man, this is the grace administration don` cha know?? He told us that the forbidden fruit was good, we can drink like fish, smoke like chimneys, screw like bunnies, whomever, wherever, whenever, whether they are willing or not, and abort any potentially embarrassing evidence....without suffering any repercussions, because all we had to do was *believe* for everything to be ok. He fooled us into partaking of his sin.... We followed him away from God.

Socks, I was told by long timers at hq the same thing you just shared. These folks said that in addition the bot actively separated VP from everyone else with claims that they needed 100 % of his attention and focus to help them with the ministry stuff. VP himself didn`t know that people were being kept away. Harsh? You betcha...but we ARE talking about the guys that HE hand picked, that HE personally trained from teenagers....Let`s face it, compassion, empathy, decency, and good character were not what he prized or fostered when grooming and promoting his leaders. These qualities were not emphasized in his training programs. Those whom were promoted, were generally the most ruthless in their pursuit of the goals. Emotions were to be firmly held in check, not to be allowed to interfere with the task at hand. In his leaders, he got just exactly what he trained them to be.

I was at a teaching at roa where the claim was made that the lights were so bright in filming pfal, that he burned them. Mrs. Wierwille had to put cold compresses in between shots, but he had only a limited amount of time so persevered. He then declared dramatically...I gave my EYE for the greatness of God`s word....what are YOU willing to give?? Baaaah

Realized his wrongness? I strongly disagree. I think if he had any conception of the harm he caused, or possessed one iota of empathy or compassion for those who`s lives he shredded...he might have at the very LEAST offered an apology. I am not picking on you, but please consider Tom, do you ever wonder if it is you/we that need for him to possess some tiny bit of goodness, a shred of decency? Do we need to feel like he wasn`t a monster, make allowances so that we don`t have to admit that WE might be mistaken in our own understanding? Sometimes we as ex wafers remind me of a good friend that I had. She was always looking to be married, wasn`t happy being single no matter how successful her life was. Every man that she met, after an hour or two, she was sure was *Mr. Right*. In her manic need to be married, she saw attributes and character, and interest in any given man that just wasn`t ever really there. In her desperate need to see these guys as her soul mate, she refused to see who or what any particular fellow really was... I feel that like my friend, in our need to still be spiritually right on, it is quite possible that we sometimes need to see and believe in a goodness and spiritual wholesomeness in vp and twi that simply wasn`t ever really there.

As far as vp committing suicide?? According to Geer he certainly did, but then it was all the bot`s fault for not asking him the right question. He also said that it was everybody`s fault for not believing and praying for vp...problem is...nobody told the rest of the believers that he was dying. It appears to me that Geere was an opportunistic creep who twisted vp`s death to accomplish his own nefarious plans.

Waysider, not doubting you at all, but could the same symptoms be explained by the copious amount of drinking people have reported?

This is the SAME man BTW whom insisted that victims of incest and rape needed to be healed by him sexually. He also insisted that a suicidal woman have sex with him in order to feel the need to live. I hardly think that his view point on sexual norm (or any OTHER thing for that matter) is either healthy or innocuous. He was one sick b-stard.

You can still believe this statement KNOWING that it was a serial sexual predator and rapist made these claims? He lied Oldies. VPW lusted AND was lascivious, AND coveted other men`s wives...AND worse taught it to others as necessary in order to become great mogs. Might want to examine that view point fella, apparently it WAS porn, and it DID encourage sin, and no, judging from the results in this man`s life and the damage his doctrines, caused....I don`t see this as vanilla at all. Quite the contrary, I see it as sick, desensitizing and grooming for future sexual predation. Showing it to minors is also prosecutable by law.

Well we all believed a lot of things once that have been since been proven false. I imagine this is just one more instance of needing to re evaluate what we once held to be *truth*

Lol, I quit a year before the birth of my first child. Raf, I am so excited for you guys :)

(((((Livinlarge)))) It is awful to find out that someone we loved and trusted could betray us so.