rascal

Ala, some people never get past the way thinking. I think that it depends on who/what you surround yourself with. If you hang around like minded people who support what you believe, you don`t see the need to change. I don`t think that I would have ever changed if I had been any where near an off shoot. Most significant of all in my recovery were waydale and grease spot.

The comparison obviously made sense to me and apparently at least one other poster agreed.

I think that makes you libel for making the accusation of me deliberately attempting to take this off topic. Please stop.

No kidding Geisha, reminds me of the stupid attorney for the woman who`s child has vanished in Fla. He has demanded that the police STOP all forensic testing on the vehicle with the dna samples, chloroform residue, the test to determine decomposing body etc. Sort of like the scenario here, He can demand all he pleases for the police to cease and desist gathering evidence, but it is rediculous to think that his protests of outrage will stop the police from gathering evidence. Also, the woman under suspiscion has parents in complete denial over the possibility of what all of the evidence points to...what it says about the daughter that they love...they refuse point blank to consider anything other than that which supports what they wish to believe about their daughter.

Nope, that is simply your opinion. If it happened to me, it is a fact jack, and I am free to talk about it. Free according to the rules of this forum..AND a right granted to me by the constitution of these United states... Were it libel, that would be a prosecutable offense. I haven`t been dragged to court yet. I am free to discuss my outrage over the mistreatment. I am also free to commiserate with others when they are sharing of their mistreatment.

Why...your own testimony concerning where you were and what programs you participated in while in twi friend. Is that not reliable? I don`t think that is fair for you to require people to remain silent because their testimony is at odds with what you wish to believe...shrug I don`t think that you have no authority by which to label peoples first hand testimony outside of your area of experience as libel.

IMO its only when people forget the script that they'll be able to find themselves and their direction Mstar, I think this is brilliant and right on. In trying to hold on to that script, trying endlessly different variations to make it work...believing as we were taught that it is the only thing worthey of consideration. I think we are truly limited to that small dark little box that twi placed us in.

The way you describe it mstar, reminds me of a job I once had. The business sold and the new owners implemented new policies. We were given a three page script to memorize. Anyone who came through the store doors to look at merchandise we were required to start asking questions to hook in the customer. The questions were designed to have only one answer...people rarely were able to leave without hundreds of dollars of items that we had convinced them they couldn`t live without. I just couldn`t do it. Twi made us believe that they had a product that we couldn`t live without. They created a need...and as we followed their carefully scripted path, we became dependent on them and their product. All other brands were dismissed as substandard. I think that they made us believe that we had a calling. They preyed upon our desire to be a force for good.

AND where as there are many many eye witness posters discussing these events....the one claiming no proof is the one who never personally witnessed anything outside of a particular area. Seems kind of like unreliable opinion if you ask me. I for one am truly thankful that we can each share our own piece of the puzzle. It gives us a bigger picture of what twi was. We can see beyond the scope of any one persons experience in a small area with limited exposure. While factual in that ones opinion, it would not be a truthful representation of what twi was and it`s impact on those whom were visciously treated and abused at the hands of vp and his leaders.

Well, I don`t know if I was *called* to do anything. It seems like IF I was called, that God would have been ready with a legitimate way to answer. I feel like twi was nothing more than a cleverly disguised snare. The lure/bait that lead us into the snare was scripture, the idea of being called to be in the spiritual battle. I had those same yearnings you describe as a child. Where the hell was God if we were called? I can`t fathom him calling us to support a ministry that destroyed so many.

I truly hope that you are right Geisha. It seems so unfair for someone at the end of their life to walk away from all of the suffering caused and show up at judgement day saying....Hey it was the grace administration, I was free to do as I pleased. To bad so sad all of you whiners, I am born again of incorruptible seed, I am untouchable :(

Man talk about a redefinition of the meaning of a word. Ones statement is only considered libel if it is untrue, at which time it is a prosecutable offense. Otherwise it is often referred to as *telling the OTHER side of the story* which is what we do here at Greasespot.

That makes me sad :( The cycle is perpetuated for another generation.

That was compassionate.

I think that you are mischaracterizing what folks are complaining about. I am not trying to be contentious or attack you Mark, but I want to be perfectly clear what I have issue with. My complaint is, with twi teachings as the root of ones theological basis....one will always remain suspect. I think that it is foolish to attempt to build a structure on a faulty foundation. Your telling me that some off shoots are building a solid structure, they spend enormous amounts of time and money erecting a new beautiful building to replace the old structure. It looks good, and may even stand for a while. However, when the storms come, the crumbling foundation that was simply patched and painted to look good and strong will eventually collapse taking the whole structure, no matter how carefully constructed, down with it. Call me the building inspector, I have seen the foundation and it isn`t solid. If I had seen repentance, apology, living love God and love your neighbor, fruit of the spirit....I might be persuaded to believe that there has been changes. That a new foundation had been laid. To me it all simply looks like more of the same...puffing ones self up with their newer better knowledge substituting that for the spiritual walk of a genuine christian. Shoot, I have no doubt that folks have the best of intentions, but didn`t we all? Did that stop the travesty of twi?

Geisha, I know what happened to me, and what I viewed happen to others. Scripture says to do thus...twi leader says...yeah but you need to do such. The seeming discrepancies were chalked up to either a lack in our understanding, a lack of spiritual maturity, or unreliable translations. Time and again we were told that we must do that which was contrary to scriptures, contrary to what was best for ourselves or our children, contrary to our desires in order to remain in the center of God`s will, in order to not give satan access to our lives. Say what you will, I know what I experienced and how horrendous abuse was justified, condoned and excused in God`s name entirely contrary to what scriptures actually say.

Lack of belief in no way alters the realities of what happened to the rest of us in twi Dove. There have been repeated incidents related by many people of instances when scripture was and did get over ruled. Your refusal to acknowledge the ocurance doesn`t mean that it didin`t happen, but rather you personally chose to remain in denial. In order to do this, it seems you must try repeatedly to negate the validity of first hand eye witness testimony with your second hand opinions.

Blame the victims, dodge responsibility, deny the evil wrought...pretend that what happened is unimportant...THAT seems to be the mark and standard of twi doctrine adherents. When I see people actually living the love of God, instead of finding scriptural support to facilitate, excuse, and even justify viscious cruel behavior I might actually be able to consider whether twi doctrine, and it`s off shoots practicing some form of it or another, are even compatible with a genuine Christian life style.

Well Mark, I suppose folks suspect that anything that began as an off shoot of twi doctrine. Kind of like the diseased tree analogy Jesus used. Anyone who hasn`t repented of the evil, renounced the doctrine and people whom facilitated the evil actions, and apologized for the harm caused, is suspect in my book. The thing that many of the off shoots seem to have in common is trying to cover and hide everything with a new and better doctrine/brand of spirituality. To me, it seems like a thin veneer that covers what is underneith....a facade to make things look ok. Until guys come forward without excuses, without blaming the victims, without accusations of bitterness and such...the offshoots and their leaders remain unworthy of trust or the title of leader.

EXACTLY George...(((ex)))

Excellent!!

Smart move Geisha, Dooj is absolutely right. I had to grab myself as well. The temptation to react in outrage to comparisons of Ralph D, one of the very few men of character and integrity at the top, one time coordinator of the whole damned country, who did his level best to fix what was wrong, who tried to warn people when he found out that it was utterly and completely broken....unselfishly help so many many people .... to compare him with the pimping ex bus driver whom drugged teen aged women`s drinks for his filthy old man boss, who STILL to this day sponges off of deceived followers....would be ludicrous if it weren`t so completely offensive.

Removed

:(

Amazing how you shamelessly substitute *opinion* in order to dismiss on the ground eye witness experience and personal testimony that doesn`t support your own personal preconcieved opinions that have no basis in personal experience or fact :(