rascal

and schwaigers...THAT is how I love God and my neighbor....I endeavor to love and take care of any and all whom he sets in my path ....be they my children, critters...crazy uncles....if they are put in my path..I love em...n you know what? most folks realise that it is God that had worked it all out....and so invariably he gets the thanks. Can`t tell you how many times I have been moved to give money or an extra vehicle a meal, maybe a phone call, or work and had the one recieving...... tearfull say that they had been praying and were so humbled that God had heard and given them an answere...I usually never even have to bring his name up...yet he gets the thanks....is that not the greatest witness? [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 15:05.]

Lol....smaller to you maybe...Shoot, if you don`t think it takes the operation of some (if not ALL) of those 9 to be aware of what 7 small children are doing at any given time of the day...or to be able to attempt to meet their needs on every level emotionally, physically and spiritualy.... to guid them into a productive happy adulthood....lol you COULD be mistaken. The privelege of being allowed raise happy healthy children..... now THAT is the most awsome of blessings (with a capitol B) ... and is quite as satisfying and on par with things that Jesus did in THIS Mom`s book! [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 14:28.]

I disagree Mike and others here will say as well...our lives are filled .... FILLED with Blessings ....for you to discount our families, our children, our homes, our joys ....the enormous blessings and benefits that have been bestowed in our lives by God is a rediculous lie. I DEFY you to say that a single one of my precious children... the blessing of their continued good health...my beloved horses.... my treasured home...all of my cool toys (yes even my less than perfect spouse;-) ....can be considered blessings with a little *b* geeze what a spit in God`s face to say that he hasn`t been overwhelmingly good to us. I am humbled to say that God has been, and continues to be good, overwhelmingly good to us even WITHOUT so much as even a GLANCE at your petty little writings in the last 15 years. You speak lies Mike [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 14:02.]

You know fence....I hope that you are right....I hope that we get a chance to apologise someday....(I cried too as I was typing my post and remembering) I cried when remembering my dogs eyes and horses all over again... Can you believe that we were told that GOD wanted/needed/demanded this of us??? I hope that leadership the ones we trusted...who used those scriptures to ensure the desired results....have a whole lot to answere for as well... What does the bible say about folks who decietfully use scriptures or God to accomplish their own ends? [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 13:33.]

No kidding cool waters... I gotta say in my spouses defense...he did not know that I had been *counceled* to ALWAYS submit.... never knew I didn`t feel like it was optional...He never shouted *submit damn you* It was just something I had been conditioned to believe was my duty...ugh it was so shamefull The old *head of the household* teachings covered a multitude of sins didn`t they??... I never felt I had the right to stand up and demand that abusive behaviors cease... I could ask...I could pray ... I could reason...I could cry....but in the end....if he didn`t want to quit....oh well too bad so sad...God would *bless* me for my commitment....blech To hell with the misery the kiddoes n I had to live with.....God woyuld honor my commitment...How sick What he NEEDED was a two by four upside the head accompanied with the threat of his no longer submissive spouse leaving with his children if he did not cease and desist with the drinking.... When he was offered the two options...thankfully he was willing to quit the drinking and with that the abusive behavior dissappeared...I would hate to think where we would be today if I was still meekly submitting myself to that rediculous standard... What is REALLY insans is....we were out of twi for over FIVE fricken years and I was still religiously adhering to their rediculous standards....

Fence...you said taking the *easy* way out....It was so cut and dry wasn`t it??? You either were pleasing to God, honored for putting your commitment to God first, a real woman of God well pleasing in his sight......or you were spiritual slime who allowed her emotions to over rule her sense of duty....bound for destruction because of the idolotry of putting a bunch of paracitic cells first. Even though you knew with all of your heart you didn`t want to do this.... It all boiled down to ...if you didn`t, you didn`t love God....it was never REALLY easy though was it?

awww (((((((((((((Fence))))))))) damn I am sorry. Please know that you are not the only one that I know of that was coerced with SCRIPTURE into an unwanted .... I want to say *procedure*even now after all of these years the word is hard say.... I also know of other twi women who were sterilized as well by that one harmless little operation....my heart aches for you all... Please PLEASE do not think that God is punishing you....or my other friends... If that was true....all of us who were bullied into that heartbreaking choice would have suffered the same fate....... I have heard of at least one woman dieing after being *counceled* into an abortion by her leadership..... I do not undertsand it...or why some of us suffered more than others....I just know that it isn`t about punishment or we all would suffer equally.... Maybe it was the differance between competant dr.s or not...or maybe whether a particular dr was having a bad day or not.... Anyway sure blows the theory outta the water about obediance to leadership always yeilds good consequences... ((((((((((((((fence))))))))))))) again I am SO sorry

What about the verses that were applied to our parents and family that put them in the *unbeliever* catagory because thy didn`t stand with twi... therefor it was ok to treat them badly??? To heck with the verses about honoring our parents...

Cool waters I remember eph 5 being wielded when I truly detested spouse during an argument....and at that time believing that I was REQUIRED to submit to sex in the midst of the anger... Course I guess that was how hubby had been counceled was the way to resolve an argument....... Gawd I disgust myself.

excellent oldies, thankyou ...so they take these verses out of the ot...written to a different nation in a different era...and apply it to themselves saying GOD ALMIGHTY requires you to send US your money...so we eat ramen noodles for lunch every day...drive pos cars...and send our abundance to hq for utilization by God...and NOW we find out that twi over the years amassed MILLIONS....blew MILLIONS in the stock market .... wined dined and bought presents for their mistresses...etc bought airplanes motor cycles and buses...whew Ugh... Seems pretty transperant now...

Yeah Oldies, I was in twi 1 (and2) ...NOT doing it was always an option for me as well in all of the afore mentioned things ...but somehow, it always boiled down .... what twi/God said or allowing Satan a victory... It seemed that I never had an option if I wanted to remain in Good standing with God.... I guess after that long convoluted post, I was really just trying to remember the scriptures used to enforce these actions.

Rottie, Mark is a+ I am a- all of our 7 children same parents... different blood types.. Shoot but vp`s *revelation* is infallible......

Abigail made the statement on the mens abuse thread that leadership TOLD her husband that he was to *control her with the word* I am still reeling from this statement.... Man oh MAN was that not what the horrors of twi were all about for some of us?? I think THAT is why I am so angry with twi.... Suuuuure they taught us some bible.....but then they USED it to manipulate us to do whatever they wished afterwards....They controlled our lives our finances where we lived who we married where our money was spent where we took our vacations how many children we had.... Heartbreaking decisions...the ones that weighed so heavily on me...ALL the things that I didn`t want to do ...felt was dead wrong ....yet they were able to *convince* me to comply simply by applying the *word* like some kind of electric cattle prod to get us to jump in the direction they desired... any thoughts or feelings I had on the matter were not of any importance.... A)Take pfal...get all God`s answeres to life... oops wow gets killed...need to pay satan back for that one dontcha know? B)Pfal completed... *if* you love God...must apply information or lose it...must go wow...avenge the death of your sister in christ.. C)Completed wow year...must go corpes...if you are in twig not currently involved in a program...you are a bump on the log..worthless...a parasite on the body of christ *if* you love God it would behoove you top go corpes....no leadership ability??? too bad so sad....God will just have to develop some wont he??......good job??? God will get you a better one in honor of your commitment?? COLLEGE????? OMG what do you NEED with a *wordly* education???? Got horses or activities that you enjoy??? family??? friends???? tough...you musn`t let anything interfere with your spiritual *duty* ....If you don`t go corpes/wow it is because you have put these things before God and are practicing idolotry ..they and you will die a horrible death...sell em shoot em whatever it takes,...but don`t put ANYTHING before God and your duty to him.....Dogs? SO what? What is the betrayal of a ten year partnership? get rid of em take em to the pound...they are only body and soul ANYWAY what IS your problem???....Do their mournfull eyes haunt you as you leave them behind????? oh thats the adversary don`t cha know...wanting to distract you from your spiritual duty... OOPSIE....pregnant on the wow field??? No sin in that....no biggie nothing that a sterile little procedure can`t take care of...no harm no foul....UNLESSS you allow that paracitic bunch of not yet alive cells interfere with your commitment to God...You know ...when you vow a vow...make a promise to God you must keep it....or you don`t love God..How COULD you NOT honor a promise that you made to God??? Oh my... Husband an abusive alcoholic? oh my leaving isn`t an option...God almighty expects you to just be better in bed...pray a little harder...make sure his house is clean and hot supper is ready at whatever time he choses to stagger in....If he is miserable and destructive..it`s all because YOU the wife haven`t been doing your job...(you know the 3 F`s we were required to operate as good wives) ...is he hurting you and the kids? well God will honor you for your commitment...leaving is not an option... Crime committed to you by a fellow believer??? nope reporting to the police and proper authorities is NOT an option...you know lest God`s ministry be nlamed...must handle it *in house*...(which usually meant after some *counceling* transferance to a new area where unsuspecting believers would fall victim yet again) It was always black and white...either you were working for God or satan... No there was never any GUN held to our heads...however, God`s expectation and scripture was whipped out like some kind of obscene weapon everytime I turned around to enforce leaderships desires. I knew that it happened....I don`t know why that it suprises me that is was an actual tool er policy. I remember duet 23:21 the verse about honoring any vow to God... was used a lot to enforce my leaders stand when I didn`t want to comply. I remember that any woman in the kingdom belonged to the king...and that our leaders were on paralel with the ot kings...Anything, and I do mean ANYTHING that would *bless* them was required so that they could best serve God`s people... oh, how bout homos being an abomination and worthey of death....so it was ok to mistreat them Um spiritual suspiscion? Leadership is always right...obey and God will honor your commitment even if it appears that they might be mistaken... Eph 5:22 was a biggie when dealing with abusive spouses.... This is what TRULY angers me about involvement with twi....they used GOD and the SCRIPTURES to control our actions and lives was unbearable.... I guess I just don`t understand why we can think that this group is even remotely Godly when they utilized God to inflict so much pain... to steal so much from so many... Can you guys remember some of the other guns um knives..uh er scriptures used in the manipulation of our lives? [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 10:56.]

Control...*like a kid with a porno mag* seems to be kindda in the same catagory of *mastering* the collaterals no ??? LMAO Too true....Once real love has been experienced....the former is but a pathetic shadow of the reality.

Oh Wow Abby, He was TOLD to *Use the word* to control you*!!! OMG is that not what the WHOLE friggin twi experience was about???? That was the only way that they could get many of us to act that way....shoot, leader was to use the word....we were required (men and women) to submit.....no matter how awfull, dangerous, or stupid we knew the actions to be...we were required to submit if we wanted remain within the will of God. We all knew that living outside of the will of God meant destruction and death for us and our family members... freedom of will my a-- They had it all down to a fine science. Geeze even if your husband WANTED to be decent and resonable...he had little choice...How horrible for both of you. [This message was edited by rascal on January 13, 2004 at 13:05.]

Hey Tony, haven`t heard of it...but please, when you read it....give us a synopsis would you?

I gotta stand up for my buddy oak, though I do adore the ones roasting him....I would have thought that the panty raid was reallty funny.... Ok my story....my bc came to me and confided that the wow in his family was a bit depressed...wanted me to have her over to my house for her birthday....wanted me to get wild...said we needed to *loosen* up and to make darn sure she had a memorable night even IF it meant that we didn`t get home by midnight! So dutifully....she n I snuck out after midnight....climbed out my second story window...pushed my very noisy truck to the corner before firing up ole mable.... Well we went over and tp rolled her house (the wow bc`s) hee hee...did a great job of it too...thought it was hysterical.....ahem....the bc was so ....ED the next morning....sigh HE didn`t see the humor in it at all...grumped at us throughout the whole clean up....hee hee...oh well It was worth it....she n I didn`t stop grinning for a week. Another *fun* story....I had been a very bad wow...but had been allowed back on the wow field....the whole branch was over at my house...we were having a *clean up* day....I was raking leaves in the corner of the yard pondering my disgrace....feeling my shame....convinced that everyone believed me to be a real spiritual loser....embarassed to even be there Well ... all of a sudden walking down the road....in the MIDDLE of town....dressed completely in white (painters pants n tshirt) was the corps guy that ran the twig on the next block over riding a HORSE he had borrowed for the occasion!! He stopped...without a word...lifted me onto the horse...and rode off with me right in front of the whole wow branch!! Being older corpes than my wow bc he didn`t dare stop him... He took me away for the day.... It was priceless.... my wow sis`s were speachless with envy (and delighted for me)....see what was really cool is....By the corps guy going to the effort of coming over and *rescuing* me in such a spectacular way....it communicated to everyone that I was OK...that I had value...I wasnt spiritual waste... I dunno the only way I can say it is that it gave me a sense *status* it restored my dignity. It was his example of love that ended my shame and condemnation as a screw up...if that makes any sense....It was a real turning point in that year. Anyway...though we were merely aquaintances at the time...I eventually married my *white night* :-) Thanks Mark.... [This message was edited by rascal on January 11, 2004 at 15:23.]

Agreed Evan and others..... I didn`t start healing untill I tossed everything....started from scratch ....admitting that I didn`t know WHAT was truth anymore (or even IF there was a God) .......the *truths* that I had accepted had been taught by liars, greedy manipulative theives .... it would be nuts to beleive that it was untainted...PLUS it didn`t work....never really HAD worked very well. (So much of what we revered in twi doctrine ....really whether right or wrong seem to be unimportant in the whole scheme of things) I eventually realised either their *formuals were flawed or God was... It`s really cool though...What was seemingly important (and much of what was dismissed by twi) has been retaught from *sanitary* sources.... many not even christian...but it seems after I learn ....understand it ....I always get a little dig in the ribs.......and it`s almost as if someone is saying... I am glad that you *get* it now...but lookit here...even though you DON`T like scriptures...lol it IS in the bible too.......( i seem to always be taught in sources of three) I think that it is cool that God is willing to go to the effort of continuing my education outside the scripture I am humbled that he cares enough to do so. No more turds in MY soup please.

The DIFFERENCE between the religions and universities that you mentioned and twi are vast..... When one destroys a child that you want because your minister tells you unequivically that THAT is what God requires of you, a faithfull desciple...you HAVE to be brain washed to follow their orders rather than listening to your own head and heart. It IS abuse to utilise God`s name and scripture to direct folks actions .....Using the authority of those scriptures to enforce their desire....(gotta keep those numbers looking good for corps and wow participants) Twi in ALL of it`s ugliness has been exposed guy....it`s out here for everyone to see in all it`s ugliness now. You cannot whitewash it ...the ugliness just bleeds right through every fresh coat of paint you keep applying to hide the stains of sin....Go ahead... frantically keep on slapping on those new layers, try different colors oldies, you will never be able to mask twi`s evil destructive manipulative yes BRAINWASHING practices...the filth will continue to bleed right through. The stains of twi are permanent...kilz itself (a stain hider for painters) couldn`t mask the filth.... the (Can you tell I have spent a little too much time helping my husband the contractor/painter? lol) [This message was edited by rascal on January 09, 2004 at 11:13.]

Oldies it isnt about blaming someone else for my actions NEVER has been. Are you being deliberatly obtuse? I SAID that is MY shame for MY actions that eats me up inside. It was the mog and his wife that insisted I chose between the baby or God. I would have gladly taken responsibility and raised that child.... You know as I look back, rather than being so enlightened.......I see tha twi was every bit as barbaric as the ancient aztec cultures and others who insisted on sacraficing their babies to appease their Gods.

Oldies...this isn`t retorical...it happened to at LEAST three women on this thread alone damn you.... When many of us ... far to many of us discovered that we were pregnant, we were told that we were letting a bunch of cells interfere with our duty to God. Everyone I have talked to had the same leverage used on them...twi had it down to a really fine schpeal We were told when we were involved in some sort of program at the time, that God himself expected us to honor our commitment...when you vow a vow yadda yadda You showed your willingness to serve ...your love for God, your spiritual commitment and maturity by obeying leaderships directives....there was no room to wiggle, if you did not have an abortion, you didn`t love God and you were bringing shame to yourself and letting down God and his ministry....you were a LIAR for not finishing the program you were in! God wouldn`t be able to look at you...much less your bretheren. This ISN`T a case of girls being counceled...there was no councel involved oldies we were forced into an untenable situation. There was no choice if you loved God... You obviously have not endured the horrors of an abortion....the soul sickening degredation....the shame, the pain...it was especially awfull if you wanted that baby with every fiber of your being....everything whithin you felt that this wrong...but your minister, the man of God that you were told that you MUST obey in order to grow spiritually, INSISTED that this was the only acceptable course of action ... that you must take it, orbegin the decent into darkness...It boiled down to the baby or God which was more important...my God what an awfull choice... Oldies, I don`t expect you to ever get it.... The abuse lies in the fact that we were forced to do something abhorrant to us, forced to destroy children that we wanted ...we were left little choice, it had NOTHING to do with being whether or not we were ready for mother hood or not...orwhether we wanted to love and raise that child you presumptive jerk. We did AWFULL things because these ministers claimed they spoke for God .... Geeze can you imagine God almighty??? *Your doing WHAT in my name?????? You think I want you to do WHAT??????? If he is capable of emotion, I think he must have cried with each and every one of us as we brokenly obeyed these horrible directives .... destroyed our children and our souls because we believed that HE required it of us....it is just SICK What is as almost as sick .... is trying to find a way to justify their heinous behavior.... [This message was edited by rascal on January 07, 2004 at 14:49.]

Ohbehave...yes they are...There was 3 dogs at the weinie roast this year. As long as your dogs don`t pester the other campers in the camp ground, noone generally says a thing. When my big dog wandered off at tims ford dragging his horse lead line that he was tied with .... Someone from a few campsights over returned him n said he didnt know whether to lead im or ride em...hee hee

Ditto what rottie said...am just ashamed that I was so gullible and foolish for so long.

Fence...good point there were many many of us that were *advised* to get abortions. It was considered an egregious sin to let anything interfere with your ability to serve God. You are right we never thought of it as a form of abuse....but then one day years and years later ...you wake up stunned at what you did in the name of God. Though you were bullied into it....though you know that you were left with no options if you loved God....the guilt is consuming...when eventually it dawns on you...you know what YOU did and you know that you can never fix it. Most of us try to make ourselves forget that it ever happened....try to pretend it was no *biggie* like the mogs said ...just some cells that hadn`t oughtta be there...parasites After a while you know better... it is a shame...a personal loathing that never quite goes away. So yeah ....though I didnt realise it at the time.....you could consider it as a form of abuse....a betrayal of trust....These people used the invocation of God`s name and his word to induce us into behavior that was amoral as well as personally abhorrant ... but yet we swallowed our revulsion and complied because we loved God and wanted to be pleasing to him. Geo Amen and Amen....if only they could see how their sacrid doctrines is yet another form of idolotry.

Anybody see the movie *little nicky* with Adam Sandler? Remember the scene of Hitler`s torment throughout eternity? We can only hope that he has something as special in store ....