rascal

Ex 10th, you are right, it was the LOVE that attracted many people. I can remember as a 17 yr old waitress...after seeing the love, the peace, the confidence the cameraderie of being on an important mission, that the wows exuded...being lonely and naieve... I remember thinking.... Gee I dunno what it is they got....but *I* WANT it. I wanted to be happy and victorious like those people in the *changed* video they showed me at my first twi function.... They said it was easy...all I needed to do was take a class that would teach me God`s answeres to all the problems in life.... I wanted to be able to *take a stand* and help make the world a better place like the exciting music fired us up about when the *take a stand caravan* came through a week or two later.... I wanted to fight in the spiritual battle for God when one of the wows died during our pfal class a week or so after that... I was told that I needed to go wow to fight and defeat Satan...I wanted to strike a blow for my friend...nso I was on the wow field within three months of introduction to twi. What is sad is.... even though much of what I learned didn`t seem very effective in pfal....I spent 15 plus years believing that was true and striving to make it work....just knowing that if *I* could just get it right.... everything would be well as promised.... For me ...it never really was about learning the word and being arrogant....It was about wanting to please God, and be a a part of a force for good... As far as what I hold on to from pfal? nothing really....unless God sees fit to reintroduce the information from a more reliable source...which on occasion,I believe that he has....much also has been proven to be false. [This message was edited by rascal on January 21, 2004 at 12:05.]

((lifted)) Though you don`t post much these days...your heart and insight are much very apreciated when you do....I meant to acknowledge and thank you for you understanding and support earlier in this thread... Thanks!

awwwwww ((((((Mandii))))))))))))) Geeze what a night mare.... It is astonishing how they seem to use the same techniques .... shame... intimidation...blame....in reading your incident... I relived my own horrible experiences in a twi situation. I experienced the terror...the fear of being possessed...the fear of dying...the fear of being a disapointment to God....as in your story. I too was put in a totally crazy situation in twi...I too was viewed as the *one with the problem* when I had a viscious leaders wife making my life a living hell....in a way home situation that had gone bad..... I too remember leaving to go home.... ....assuming that I was to *die* ...but wanting to at least be around SOMEONE who cared for me..EVEN if they were rank unbelieving family members........It was not nearly as arduous a journey as yours (I had a car) ..but very bad never the less.....and after getting home the secret shame and guilt carried around only increased... I remember the personal loathing I felt for having failed in my percieved responsibility. I remember thinking that death was a preferable option than being thought of as evil... or worse yet maybe REALLY posessed. It took some really outstanding intervention to prevent me from finally succumbing to the shame. (((Mandii))) When you finally DO share...lol you blow me away.... So much to say to you...but so tired...will finish tomorrow. I am so sorry for what those Guys did to you in the name of God....those whom you trusted... YOU who were only trying to *give*.

Let`s see so far we have instances of the *standard* of the *word* being *USED* to.... Break up marriages... justify abusive spouses/leaders force us to endure unacceptable actions.... assure compliance with insane standards... force abortions... extract money from those struggeling and presenting it to those who squandered it... throw children out of the home...... to force folks to sell homes against their better judgement... hide criminal activity prevent us from going to college... ignore responsibilities to family... What about that??? How many stories have we heard about elderly ailing parents that we ignored because we were too busy honoring our commitments...some never got the chance to make it up... I remember one friend who when heard of a parents serious illness and possible imminent death....being told not to leave the wow field...that God would honor her promise....she was counceled that she needed to stay on the wow field ...God would honor her believing that would be the way for her to help her mother...and so against her better judgement she stayed...convinced by leaders that if she left .... satan would win and probably kill her parent any way...she never got to say goodbye to that mother who died asking for her...not understanding why her daughter couldn`t come...:-( Some things can`t be fixed. [This message was edited by rascal on January 17, 2004 at 19:46.]

(((((((Zix)))))) :)-->

That is so insane......I remember when the *standard* was to never talk to either spouse alone. Guys ........ what those supposed authorities did to you wonderfull people is criminal. It is really strange how they tried to bust up SOME marriages...and yet they required that others remain in abusive marriages. Dove, I am glad that you and your spouse had the resiliancy to withstand the pressures. Sadly Oak, yours is but one of many marriages that I know of that collapsed as a direct result of pressure by leadership leaning on one spouse or the other.... councelling one spouse that the other wasn`t *spiritual* enough* or wasn`t doing the *word* to their satisfaction. I know some who felt they had no choice...again it was presented as a choice between their spouse or God your spiritual duty verses your senses feelings.... Who the he ll WERE these guys to destroy families???

Oh GEEZE shaz.... your HAIR?? I so understand what you are talking about....trying to make him happy enough to want to be *nice* I had been trying to apply the ministry formula for wives for years...I totally understand your frustration...I like you had a drunken at time abusive spouse....the shame of never being good enough was terrible...I had no self esteem...it never dawned on me that ALL of lifes problems were NOT my fault.... Shoot nothing was ever good enough... No matter how hard I tried...I finally realised that either God didn`t work or the stupid standard of the *word* that I had been taught was wrong...I put up with that crap because I was taught by my leaders that God demanded this of me....would *bless* me for following and submitting to the spouse...that kids would be *blessed* as long as they *obeyed* daddy... Well it was all a lie...it wasn`t untill i got damn rebellious and took a stand that life changed for the better. The LAST thing an alcoholic needs is a meek little doormat pleading with them to act a little nicer.... . [This message was edited by rascal on January 17, 2004 at 0:04.]

Hey mandii...great to see you girl! That is terrible ex...I heard of stuff like that happening .... did you ever hear from the other girl? How awfull she must have felt having the mog declair her to be worthless....some never recovered once declared *spiritual* waste by the powers that be. How about the face meltings that we meekly sat and accepted? I am talking about the insane screaming spit flying two inches from your face rantings.......behavior that is not acceptable anywhere else... We sat and TOOK it meekly because we had been taught that the *word* demanded it of one who wanted to grow....that if we didn`t we would be hard hearted...not meek ...if we retaliated in any way it only proved their point that we were *posessed*. Those were horrible..... but I sat and let them do it....because I loved God and thought that was what he wanted. Geeze after one screaming session I remember that I actualy THANKED the lc for loving me enough to set me straight....sigh.........geeze how freakin controlled is THAT?? Any other situation n we wouldda either ripped their heads off or had em arrested.

Type (A) ??? Would it matter? How would THAT have any bearing on how the *word* was used to control WHATEVER personality I happen to have been?? For your information...I have been trying to TELL you that *I* wasn`t allowed the luxury of having any particular personality type...if it wasn`t explicitly laid out in proverbs concerning the virtuous woman....my leaders generally TOLD me what/how/when I was allowed to think . How does MY personality type have anything to do with the *word* being used to force us to do twi/leaders whims? .... Could it be that in now pointing a finger at my *type* you are employing yet another means of redirecting the focus from the actual culprits and situations being discussed? Seems to becoming a pattern oldies.

Excathedra...I sure hear you about being afraid of being branded an attention seeking victim....it bothers me whenever I post. It is very hard to talk about this stuff and then someone points a finger n says...oh you just like wallowing in it...you VICTIM you...everything would be JUST fine if you weren`t such a whiner....God you feel like crap all over again. Shoot it isn`t about seeking attention or sympathy ...I am determined that nobody will shame me into being quiet again.

*I* am taking this way to FAR?????? Me?????....whew...but then again...what CAN you expect from a probably lying...at least overexagerating, completely unthankfull, eternally whining victim who choses to ever wallow in her wounds and never move on ????...........One who doesn`t have the BRAINS to be apreciative of the good that someone ELSE might have gleaned from vpw.??? My GOD why can`t I just be content knowing that our minor discomforts experienced were an acceptable price to pay so that the REST of you could *recievethewordlikeithasntbeenknownsincethefirstcentury*?. I beg your forgivness for my inapropriate and miserable whining being an annoyance to you friend. [This message was edited by rascal on January 16, 2004 at 10:48.]

It IS about someone taking something that should have been good , wholesom, a means of getting to know God and live a life that was pleasing to him.....and instead using it to manipulate us into untenable situations. Oldies, I am talking about men women and children...we were forced to completely bury our true selves, our true desires, comply with at times unendurable situations by the brandishing the scriptures. It isn`t a guy or girl or a victim thing ...it is about being damn mad about the *WORD* being USED to control!

Oldies, you said that *it`s not a true statement* from your point of view....that is just a sneaky way of saying that because you didn`t experience the same ... what we said was a lie....real slick. It DID happen...it IS truth...whether you ever saw or experienced such. It WOULD be possible for you to say your piece about what you experienced without calling us liars...you COULD also state your position without minimalising the abuses some of us endured ...without trying to shut us up .... pointing the finger at us and telling us we are whiney victims and we would be JUST fine if we would *get over it*.... But you don`t .... Are you doing it on purpose? You seem to want to preserve the believe that it was a Godly organisation to the point of calling we who saw the satanic influence liars. ie ... evil couldn`t coexist with the good there for we must be mistaken in what we percieved our experiences to be eh? Do you really need for twi to be good to the point that you have to make us out to be liars, or accuse us of greatly exagerating the abuse...or as victims who just want to wallow in self pitty? Self pity and desire for attention is SO not what this is all about.

(Sadie)) thanks...not to worry friend, this is all part of the healing and grow...trust me. See I will go out on a limb here...I will EVEN say that I believe that twi taught and utilized the word to the point where they were able to shut OUT the very voice of God... I cannot tell you how many times I vigorously shut him out by mistaking him for evil old man nature. I fiercly ignored his voice of protest everytime I subjected myself to some new indignity being introduced by twi by ferociously running scriptures through my mind so that I could live with myself and the choices I was makeing.

Tom Srange, thankyou for understanding...Abigail, thanks for letting me borrow your line.... You know....as ....ed as I am about being used....I gotta wonder...if ther IS a God ...how does HE feel about HIS name being an instrument used to force people to comply... How did HE feel when the ones looking to him were forced into unwanted servitude>? How did HE feel when we were killing our babies because we thought it was what he required? How did HE feel when we faithfully gave our money for his service...though we mightn`t have enough money for food or to repair our own cars....and knowing that in reality it was going to by something frivolous for the mog or his newest interest? How did HE feel when we stayed in abusive marriages/wayhomes/wow fiels..whatever the sitution beacuse we were told that was what he expected? How did HE feel when half the folks looking to him were told that they no longer were allowed to have that spiritual *connection* because now they had to go through their spouses? If he`s there....maybe he`s feeling a bit used as well.

Ok ok...the topic wasn`t supposed to be about abuse and whether or not we should just *get over it*....or figure out whether or not I a victim wallowing in it or allowed to still be mad...it is supposed to be about using the *WORD* to control us ...be we men women or children....leadership or not....THIS is what angers me....even MORE than the abuses . Something that was supposed to be good and wholesome....God and the bible....was the tool utilized to control our lives and actions... I think I could have fought back against a gun or physical force....but how much MORE difficult is it to actually fight back against what God supposedly wants?? We were taught to have great reverence and respect for that word...to put it above everything.....it was the hook...the snare If you had ANY thoughts contrary to what was being demanded...it was *Satan* tricking you... If you hesitated to comply with your leadership...you were rebellious and bound for destruction........ If you didn`t immediatly comply with the head of the household...you were posessed with a lesbian spirit to be reviled and viewed with disgust....If the spouse couldn`t keep you in line...he was *spiritually* weak....if there was sickness or problems of ANY kind in your life or your marriage it was due to the head of household blowing it somewhere....if you didn`t follow leaderships instructions...you were treated as a pariah by everyone you knew.... The fear of being outside the will of God ensured complete unquestioned compliance from us...to consider any other action was to be allowing Satan in. The *WORD* was wielded like a ball bat. I am not even claiming that the *word* taught was necessarily a bad thing....I am saying that AFTER teaching it and instilling reverence and respect...it was then used...USED to force us into unwholesome miserable situations. [This message was edited by rascal on January 15, 2004 at 13:49.] [This message was edited by rascal on January 15, 2004 at 14:09.]

(((Zix))) thankyou... I am sorry ... I certainly don`t intend to be hard on oldies...sorry if that is how it is percieved. Maybe I AM misreading him....Maybe I am lumping him in a catagory with others ....I get real mad when I feel like what we went through is ok because ... a) it didn`t happen... b) if it did happen it was ok because you... probably deserved it... c) on the remote chance it DID happen and that it was as bad as you say... it really IS all good because we recieved the word like it hasn`t been taught like the first century.. Guess that is what I hear ....is that NOT what is really been said when you tell me to quit being a victim.... oldies? am I mis reading you when you say *just eat the fish and spit out the bones*? That hey, the degradation you suffered........the soul consuming ... life sucking ....youth robbing situations would not be a problem...you would be just fine if you would just focus on the good of twi??? I am SAYING that in *MY* *opinion* being in twi AS a woman SUCKED !!!! Almost every bit of the 10 plus years of involvement ...somebody was manipulating me to do things that were unpleasant or take something from me... When you oldies want to wax nostalgic and say...but yeah it was really ok...and you just need to look at the nice things...I grow very angry... I`ll bet you as a man might very well HAVE had a wonderfull time...maybe you were a leader....at any rate you were closer to the top of the food chain closer to the light and nutrients.......what the rest of us (namely the women and the children) many times experienced was the excrement that was dropping down continuously from those above. Thank you zix, I admire and respect you enormously, that you would care enough to try to help me see things more circumspectly...is apreciated...Thankyou for taking the time... I apologise if I dissapoint you with my anger...i guess after finally finding a voice after all of these years...I have a few things that I want to say. Oldies...if I have misread you, if I am being unfair, or ugly... my sincerest apologies... If I haven`t and your position is as I percieve...then I believe you to be one cold fish.

Fence...agreed...Talking about this stuff has so NEVER ever been a ploy for *sympathy* as some avow. It was and continues to be all about finally recognising being manipulated (and that it is ok to be angry)... the weapons that were employed to assure compliance...no matter what form the abuse and robbery took........God was hidden behind....scriptures were the camoflage used to mask the evil perperated. .....anytime one of us comes forward with these stories exposing the evil experienced ..there are usually guys who come along and tell us either that it never really happened...or it wasnt really that bad or or it really was our faults...we wanted it all along....OR even if it WAS devistating to you personally...that doesn`t matter because some of the rest of us got the *word*!! Only thing I can figure out about why our stories are upsetting to some is that maybe they threaten ones perceptions of twi...........

Oldies... your *exchanges* generally appear to be a thinly diguised attempt to justify twi`s behavior. Damn right you are going to draw some flack when you say what happened to us was REALLY ok becaaaaaause... of whatever When you say oh it wasn`t that bad....just get over it you *victim* you....it is cold ...very cold.....gosh you have made that dirty shamefull word.

Shoot oldies .... I guess that I just keep overestimating you.

Yeah I have seen John Lynns letter....Spoken TRULY like a man who wants to justify and minimise the damage he inflicted on folks by him and an organization that he was intrumental in builing. Of COURSE thats how he and the folks on the top of the food chain feel about those of us that were used and tossed aside when our usefullness exhausted .... to consider any other option to recognise THEIR guilt ...the pain THEY inflicted...the evil that THEY themselves visited upon others would lead to overwhelming guilt.... They can`t HANDLE the truth of the evilness of their actions...... so they have to lie to themselves and dismiss the damage .... the sometimes irreperable harm they inflicted on so many .... they have to put the blame on someone else... yeah thats right... they have to tell themselves that they bear no responsibility...that the victims are at fault for hurting ...just one more swipe at the person that they have treated badly...they have to believe that those hurt need to just *get over it* minimalise the damage in order to obsolve themselves of their enormous guilt... SSDD [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 18:56.]

You are correct, if Mom is neg and Dad is positive...if the baby is positive they are in danger.. Thats why we get rogam shots....... the fetus gets the blood type from mom or dad...you never know which it will be so I always get the shot.... I can tell you conclusively....thatin our brood...we have children of their Dads blood type and children of my blood type... If wierwills theory is correct..... My rh positive husband could NOT have fathered my rh neg children.....(whew is their Daddy in for an unpleasant suprise)

Oldies....I wasn`t including everybody in my statement...but honestly....does it matter? Does it really matter if it only happened to a percentage of us? That it happened at all ... that it was a fricken policy ... is to be a condemnation for the ministry that utilized such a course of action ...one that was not only recomended but demanded of people to manipulate others in the desired direction is abominable I am glad that it didn`t happen to you....but that it happened to any of us EVER is a travesty of what that bible was intended for... Using it as a goad to enforce someone ELSES plans and desires is just plain wrong....bordering on criminal imo

So is it any different.... whether control over an individual is achieved by use of superior force... a weapon...or the scriptures? Is it better or worse that God was weapon used to intimidate us into thievery? We complied through fear of displeasing God... fear of not loving him fear of letting satan in to destroy us if we did not hand over our money...leave our homes on demand....destroy our unborn children.... succumb to the mog`s demands..... the crimes are numerous If it had been done with a gun or a knife.... at LEAST we could have prosecuted... Ok how about the families we know who were required to throw their rebellious children litterally out on the friggin STREETS!!!! I kid you not I know a family who was faced with the kicking their sweet teenage daughter out to the curb like so much trash or risk being cast out of the household and God`s protection...a course which would bring death and destruction to the rest of the family. Really the kid was a sweety....just wasn`t quite respectfull enough to the step dad or lc... I am saddened to say that the parents though they didn`t want to....complied with the lc`s demand....they threw their DAUGHTER their flesh and blood out on the streets because the screws of the *word* were applied ...

Yes Onion eater... many men were cowardly bullies that LOVED using the authority given them by scripture to mistreat their wives... However it wasn`t always just the men being abusive jerks......THATS what kills me ...many times they never HAD to demand it or bring the word into play due to the prior conditioning of us women. We were taught at the womens advances, pre marriage counceling adv class etc...that God almighty IN his word said that we women were to submit be it husband or leadership...the degree to which we loved and respected God was dirctly determined by the alacrity in which you submitted to his word...ie spouse and leaders....many times my poor spouse never knew I had any objections because it never occured to me that i had any choice... It shames me so...when I think of the miriade of times I swallowed my pride his my shame...stifled my desires and individuality to be pleasing to God... You are so right about carrying the stupidity on even years after leaving twi ... a few years back...the spouse ordered a subscription for me to an ex way womens magazine....I had to cancel it...I kid you not, every ...and I mean EVERY artical in the foolish thing was about how to be pleasing to your spouse...how to find a man your spiritual equal outside of twi so that it wouldn`t be hard to submit....how to be virtuous...gawd...i wanted to pull my hair out....here we were all out of twi...but still using the same damn bible verses to enslave ourselves....and promote the same stupid behaviors...worst of all...How sick is that???It was WOMEN and they were STILL doing it to THEMSELVES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Auuuuuuuuuuuuuugh [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 15:08.] [This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 15:29.]