rascal

Good for you golfie...I am serious...most parents just accepted it as truth and allowed their children to be bullied. I do not know if I would have had the nerve to stand up against leaders edicts.. thank God We left before mine were ever treated worse than being snarled at for not sitting still during a super long boring fellowship (at 3 yrs old).

CW ...it sounds like some kind of sick sick horror movie...My God so hq had to know....how else would locals know to go after letters from leadership and such....know to break in and retreive this stuff? Dear God CW I am so very sorry for what you and your family have endured at twi`s hands... I wish there was some way to go back in time and extract some justice.

(((((((((cw))))) I am so sorry...This is so inexcusable....YOU guys were branded as evil.....I knew about alaska from another mom.... I am wondering if the molester from the state I mentioned...(definatly not alaska) was then moved to alaska...OR do we have two seperate incidences of this horror... in the one the parents shut up because they were told that it was wrong to take a believer before unbeliever courts...and that they must let twi handle it in the most apropriate *spiritual* manner ...yeah righ cya... What slays me is that they sent this guy on to an area to wreak his havock on a whole NEW set of unsuspecting believers yet again.... WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???????

aww (((cw)) I have heard from another source about a (maybe the same) situation....it was horrible...as I understand it...one woman said that some lost their children to the state and never got them back... I do not know if it is the same leader....but I talked with a lady ...and according to her.... most of the children in her state had been molested at one time or another by someone in charge of childrens fellowship.......when discovered...the parents were all intimidated into not going to the authorities...told it would be handled *in house* only to find out in later years.... that the offender had simply been transferred to another state...utterly reprehensible....

Ok megan ... I missunderstood... It upsets me to think that it was used on you at all...Can you tell I am a protective mama? lol..I am glad that you are ok....

At 13 they were spanking you with a wooden spoon??? Megan...that in itself is pretty rediculous...completely inapropriate for a teen..degrading as well as humiliating... as I understand it ...any adult on grounds had that authority. Sometimes I think that it will take growing older and having children of your own before you will see the wrongness of some of what was inflicted on you....

Ohhh cw THAT is horrible...omg I dearly wish cnbc...terry bradshaw and that imus guy could be made aware of the evils of the group they so blythly promoted.... ps...ya suppose waygb has sent out the red alert to twi`s lawyers scrambeling after reading imf`s post about legal ramifications??? Hope they are sweating bullets right about now.

You don`t need to be silent at all oldies....I have no doubt that at ALL that you wish we wouldn`t discuss vpw`s character flaws...wish we would contain our conversation to biblical issues...THAT`D keep us shut up...ain`t gonna happen however This whole mess started with wth declaring that WE who saw vp`s ugly side.. were all liars and exagerating whiners...that vpw was a Great man of faith....those are lies....to leave that unchallenged would be to agree....to keep silent about his true nature...... YOU oldies have once again turned it into a whiners thread about not being able to say *nice* things about vp..... YOU have mischaracterised and drawn the whole thread off track ...... Defend vpw, wth or whomever you wish....but don`t expect that I will leave allegations that we who post are liars and whiners because we don`t *take it like a man* ....it will not be left unchallenged...

Oldies...you have no IDEA what rascal really wants...But I will spell it out... once folks can see that vpw was NOT what he proclaimed himself to be.... the scales begin to fall away...one is then free to realise that not all doctrine in twi was God breathed or necessarily healthy. Untill that point in time...one remains tightly enclosed within a small box ...afraid to see anything outside of the dark little prison formed by twi scriptures. It has nothing to do about whether or not you got blessed personally.... I never denied it...again I say...ENJOY!!! the blessing that you recieved at the hands of the man who heinously used your brother and sister in christ ...Doesn`t matter what others endured as long as you and mike and wth recieved the *word* See problem is...I don`t think the price was acceptable...nor do I think that God works that way....

dittoes freaky... Cool waters...God in a box..EXACTLY! I so get it...Thats what starting back at square one meant...

EXACTLY Freak...when I quit trying to do it all myself.... I was so enraged at God...all of the years of submitting to husband...reading the word and praying the first 30 miniutes of every day...tithing...witnessing...obediance to leaders..meetings classes......all of that denial of self in order to stuff myself into twi`s virtuous woman/believer mold...the total absolute devotion to doing all of the right things..dotting all my *i*s and crossing all my *t*s spiritually to keep the adversary from having access to me and those I love....proved to be of no effect...I STILL got my arse kicked...my heart broken... I didn`t just *tell* God to f--- off...I screamed it AND accompanied it with hand gestures....sigh I am humbled that he loved me enough to see past the hurt...the rage...the tears....to have the patience to start all over again.

Do you guys ever watch court tv? How when someone has been convicted of a heinous crime ......there are always family members at the sentancing phase crying and sobbing,....begging for their sons/brothers/boyfriends life....doesn`t matter that the guy kidnapped raped and murdered a 7 yr old little girl or the guys who did the same to 5 people in witchita...or the lady who drove home with the guy in her car windshield n left him there to die in the garage for 3 days....without exception....they always have friends and family members that will make excuses for them and proclaim their love extoll the virtues ....beg you to forgive them......He reeeeeeeeeaally isn`t such a bad guy...he was good to me...he was good to the children... She always USED to go to church with her family...puuuuuuuuuuhleaaaaaaaase don`t be so mean ...........They weren`t aaaaaaall bad...waaah sob sniff sniff ...sob [This message was edited by rascal on February 11, 2004 at 14:57.]

S`funny how people feel that way about people who have treated them and those they love badly.

You know....It wasn`t untill I stopped operating all of those so called principles and habits I aquired in twi trying to be spiritual ....that I was able to finally hear the voics of God again...I believe through holy spirit... I had to stop studying/retemorizing/witnessing/tithing/...yes even sit....all of the things that I was doing in order to grow spiritually enough...be good enough for God operate in my life... It was so strange....it was when I got mad enough to tell God to f-**** off because the *principles* didn`t work....that he was able to finally break through all of the crap.... It was like...ok....now that you have laid aside how YOU think I should work....lets start back at square one... I think when I stopped demanding that God function in the manner that twi ordained...that THAT was when the holy spirit was able to start guiding me.

Ex...I have to wonder if the whole purpose of the bible and Jesus`s teachings weren`t to get us to the point to where we could not only RECIEVE that gift ...but to recognise and utilize it as well.... That guidance that can take us ever so much further than mere scriptural annalysis and study.... It seemed to me that in twi...immersion in biblical study replaced the role of holy spirit as a guidance a teacher. It`s like we spent all of our time searching the scriptures and and in prayer...and operating biblical principles....all the while expecting them to fullfill the capacity that the holy spirit was intended for.... Great thread ex....am looking forward to examining this.

WTH....would you really feel this way if it was your little sister ..your little brother??God forbid your sweet daughter?? My daughter is aproaching the age that vpw liked em....the wow I mentioned??? she was a 17 yr old...had never been with a man...n vpw wanted to *larn her right* is that really acceptable to you??? Were the consequences of her refusal acceptable?? it was over twenty YEARS before her family learned and accepted the truth about the man whose teachings they revered... Do you know that I read where one top leader ADMITTED that drugs at times were used when the girls were not compliant?? Would you not be angry if it was your sweet child whom awoke in horror at what she participated in??? I don`t get how you guys can NOT be furious...Have you children?

Oldies I catagorically DENIE that I am blinded by hatrid....but I ask again...is there ANY diofference in being blinded by hatrid or blinded by love??? IT`S STILL FRIGGIN BLINDNESS! You are the blind guy ...cussin the other blind guy...kindda silly ain`t it? Neither one of you can really see things as they truly are can you? I guess I was trying to give you a pair of glasses to assist your vision....guess that the blindness is past the point of correction ... I will leave you to your darkness... ENJOY!!

You lie with a dog..ya gets fleas man...ya lie with a pig...ya draw flies... the stench clings to you ...you stink man.....whether you are actually swine or not it`s hard to tell the difference

If I choose to focus on the disgust I feel for this mans actions.......it doesn`t mean that I don`t care about anything else...it MEANS that his actions were reprehensible...PERIOD! In order for YOU to recieve YOUR communication from vpw....OTHERS paid the tab by their sacrifice to sate vpw`s lusts... He was filthy nasty dirty....but thats ok because you benefited personally from your contact with him...because you got some good out of that...you don`t want anyone to know what a criminal he was...that makes you reprehensible as well. Like I said ...your bretheren paid the price....ENJOY!

Look at what joy little timmie n whatever the little girls name was that came after have brought to the M-rtindales...the love the joy the pride...a life time of joy, experiences and memories....now contrats that with how many were DENIED this joy....the wonderfull children that we never got to know because of lcm`s selfish little edict... is it tens...hundreds ... possibly thousands of wonderfull little folks that we will never be allowed to treasure and enjoy... Shoot and those children`s children...the grandchildren to never be treasured.....enjoyed or spoiled...grrrrr This is HEINOUS! [This message was edited by rascal on February 11, 2004 at 13:31.]

He was dirty Oldies....

I am NOT blinded by hate of this man...I AM however, disgusted ...revolted..apalled..sickened furious for what he did ...but I NOT blinded... Blinded by Hate?? Maybe YOU are blinded by love oldies....does it matter either way ??? It really IS still *blindness* isnt` it? Just because you like him personally, or that vpw once did you a personal service....it does not excuse his guilt or excuse the *sins* or make his crimes any less heinous.... I am sorry...no matter WHAT this man did for you personally....that he could do these other things to folks...makes him an a number one creep...ESPE CIALLY since he was representing God and manipulating scripture to aquire that which he desired...and that he would use that same bible and his authority as God`s representative to bring hurt and shame to those who thwarted his efforts....He used all within his power to *mess* em up good. Guys.... that you value what he did for you above the harm he did to many...that you want to count the pain and humiliation that we suffered as acceptable because of the benefits you personally recieved is really nasty... I would feel dirty ... contaminated enjoying anything that came at the expense of our dear bretheren... go ahead though...the price of your *blessing* was paid...the cost was dear ...but the tab was paid ENJOY!

Well...I didn`t mean that...nobady should EVER have to do that.....amazing how the rules never applied when it became inconvenient to Donna n Craig

Geeze ain`t that just like lcm...make an edict ...enforce it... and then lift it as soon as it becomes *inconvenient* for him,... Donna shouldda had to abort it like everyone else....imo

Wth I understand your experiences were good in twi...many of mine were too when not dealing with particular leadership...or refusing to obey a directive... Most abusers ARE nice to folks ...they masquerade as baseball coaches as scout leaders...one I heard of was a karate teacher...ministers...see ...they HAVE to get peoples confidence ....most that are close to them have no clue.... they have to be a pillar of the community....or they will not have access to anyone. The neighbor who *enjoyed* himself sexually with me on a regular basis when I was a little girl was a fine upstanding member of a upper middle class neighborhood...married, good job...everybody liked and respected him....well enough to let their kiddoes go on day trips with him his wife and his dog...Do you think that they would ever have believed a little girl...when he did so much for everybody else??? seemed so nice??? THATS how they get away with it!~I am not even sure his wife knew...or whether it was just convenient when she disappeared...sigh It is hard to accept that one whom you respected could not be what they portrayed themselves to be...I understand that...but consider that just because you personally enjoyed some benefit from what he taught....ALL of us DID!!!!! it still doesn`t make him a wholesome individual...or us evil for being angry at his callous use and disregard of life....these are sweet good people that you want to flush down the crapper because vp did.