rascal

That is a lie oldies....an out and out big fat LIE! WE recieved the loyalty oath letter and we were not employees of twi....never....simply Joe corpes on the field...not even twig coordinators at the time. There were NO concernes addressed oldies...NONE not a single solitary shred of an explanation... ALL that it said was that he demanded a letter from us swearing loyalty to him...rather than the *man across the sea* one way or another....the one quote that I vividly remember was lcm saying in the letter...*and DON`t give him any loyalty to God crap* because that was the tearing point for my husband....he told me that our loyalty would always be to God first.... and refused to write a letter one way or another.... We recieved a letter shortly after the first ....stating that we were *salt that had llost it`s savor* we were *fit only to be thrown into the street and trodden under the feet of the beasts*...*worthless* among other choice epitahps by lcm...it was cruel. all of our years of service and standing were nothing...we were useless to God and ministry. As far as lc`s and leaders never telling why they left??? That is a lie as well...Our limb co. recieved a letter from the country co. as to why S. America was no longer standing with the way in the usa....our lc forwarded copies to the tc.~s....Howard A then called Lc and after screaming at him for a while then fired them...folks of long standing reputation in twi. H.Q THEN tells alla the rest of the state in a letter that our much loved lc`s had made the *choice* to retire early and move....it was a lie....it was the first time I had seen hq out and out lie about a situation...very upsetting to know that our very spiritual lives were in the hands of someone who would a treat long standing leadesrso badly and b lie so ouragiously about what had occured. Thats how it happened oldies, if anybody ANYBODY tried to tell the *other side of the story* they were shut up...sent away and lied about.... so nobody would listen. That is why you never heard the *real* story* most of the time Defend twi all you like....but don`t make up stories about the content of letters you never recieved or treatment that that you never endured...

I complied because I wanted to grow with God...I was told that obedience was required...you know...peter was a great deciple...walked out to meet Jesus cause he obeyed immediatly when Jesus called him......never questioned...never looked at the negatives or 5 sences aspects of the storm and waves....when he stopped obeying thats when he sank...yadda yadda... I obeyed because i craved to be my best for god....serve him in whatever capacity he needed..i was told that these people could guide me...they lied.

Oldies....John Ritcheson did precisely as you recomend....reread HIS letters and replies from the current president....read about the consequences of HIS letters. I have to wonder in your pushing innies to write and reveal themselves....is there some REASON why you want them discovered and ousted?

Why comply??? Because if we DIDN`T we were taught that we didn`t want to grow ...didn`t love God, and were bound for destruction. We all heard the stories time and again how somebody didn`t obey leadership and either got possessed orr died. There was nothing loving about the intrusion...your true belief not withstanding...sorry. It was a nasty demaning shamefull experience As far as it being a cult...it was because there were people that used the bible and God to extort naieve young folks...people who simply wanted to love God...that IS ugly. We didn`t want to be used .... we were decieved ... I strongly reject your opinion that it wasn`t about manipulation and control.

Maybe that was true for you mj....but as far as most of the rest of us are concerned...Thats a load of crap ...I neither asked nor wanted leadership to make my decisions..They took over ...siezed control....and if you didn`t accept it was because you weren`t spiritual enough.... you didn`t love God enough to want to grow. I wanted to grow with God...I wanted to be a better person...implicit obedience to leadership was an absolute necessity to accomplish that...so I shut up and submittted...whatever it took...no matter how I felt personally...I wanted to be a better child of God. Obediance was many times demeaning and very shamefull...to suggest that one *wanted* these intrusions in our lives ... that we needed someone to make our choices is rediculous.

Where can *I* learn more about sea monkies? How can I enjoy the benefit of their power in my life? Would it help if I sent money? Do I have to raise some to fully understand the amazement? I`m begging.....is there a listing of the nearest seamonky meeting?

Cool Waters....I guess I am thinking about how it was our excitement that sold pfal...it was our wholesome image that told people that the way ministry was a good place to be.... There were thousands of us with the best of intentions inviting people to learn about God...running classes in our homes....promoting wow adv. class and corpes...talented teachers...inspired musicians and artists..... and NOW we find out that we were putting folks in harms way....the sinister forces waiting to indulge themselves at these peoples expense....these people who TRUSTED us! We had the BEST of intentions....and yet we lured people into what turned out to be their destruction.... College plans were abandoned....families were ignored....a lifetime of struggles for many of us....... They looked at us....they saw good hearted earnest christians and so they bought into twi. All that work that I thought I was doing for God....all of the sacrifices made....and now I find out that I was merely a tool to impliment consumption and destruction of others... The *good* in twi....seems to have aided in the beguiling of people.... Idon`t know if I can apreciate any of the good because it is what blinded me to the harm that was being done. If the *good* was what enabled the bad to function...does that mean that the *good* was really Bad? [This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 17:31.]

The *good* things in twi are what lured folks d into an organization...one in which their children would one day be forced to endure abuse...placed in a position to be exploited by pedophiles..women placed in the power of abusive men... mariages that would be destroyed due to interfering leaders with no skills for *counceling* women would be forced to abort their children.... ALL of the great things we promised folks from the green cards the scriptures we taught them to win their trust...it was OUR credibility that folks bought into.... God forgive me......I don`t think I can wax nostalgic for the *good* things of twi....

We were witnessing...running classes...encouraging people to grow with God...told them that they needed to go wow and corpes.... Thing is....when our dear sisters arrived on campus..hq...etc...while we were out on the field continuing in our spiritual responsibilities.....endeavoring to do our best for his highest...earnestly engaging in the spiritual battle on a daily basis....these fat cats were preying on these wonderfull women who thought they had made a commitmeant to God.... We sent them our money...we couldn`t repair our cars....couldn`t afford food at times....God needed the first fruits of our labors....and now we find out it was used at times to finance abortions....buy the newest toys for the mogs...or treat the mogs ladies.... All of this evil that we lured unsuspecting souls seeking God into......we were the bait for the snare. I feel dirty. [This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 13:45.]

So...with the thread going about loving twi memories....I have to admit...there WERE a lot of good memories with friends and activities in twi... I think about how we got fired up by the great music...the teachers who were gifted.....the comeraderie...the excitement of meeting friends at roa... thing is....the final piece of the puzzel I need to put into place is wondering .... if it was these very things that made twi atractive ...endurable...that held us there...that means that THESE very things are what enabled the evil to remain incognito...to wreak havock in peoples lives behind the scenes....so are they/we really such a *good* thing? No matter HOW good our intentions were...WE ...our efforts are what enabled and fascillitated the evil perpetrated in twi by vp and his chosen few....it is because WE gave twi an appearance of legitimacy... It was all of we good pure hearted wafers dedicating ourselves to God`s service...sending in our money...bringing in new people .... giving our free labor to maintain appearences on grounds ... we who dutifully ran classes at our own expense that enabled VPW LCM and others to prey upon our sisters and friends......We enabled him to build an empire that appeared legitimate with college campuses....pretty properties...wholesome appearing activities....loving individuals in sweet fellowships...the things we enjoyed...remember so fondly are the very things that kept us involved with an organization that used and betrayed it`s people....We lled folks like sheep to a slaughter.... If we hadn`t been doing our best for God...our utmost for his highest....evil would have had nothing to hide behind...Twi could have never gotten away with what they did ...*laughing their a--es off all the way to the bank* as HA has been fond of quoting... So I have to wonder...am I REALLY gratefull for the *good* times? The loving leaders...the sweet fellowships...the fun events....the wonderfull folks who made twi an attractive place? Were we...the *good* folks really good if that was what lured the unsuspecting in to the snare? Was God REALLY guiding me there? Why would he put us in harms way...to be used and fleeced by someone who represented him? Maybe he just helped me out of there once I was ensnared....maybe the great things I experienced were from God in SPITE of the evil that we were facilitating...maybe I should just be gratefull to him for my good experiences rather than giving credit to the devourers Does he hold us responsible for the damage twi inflicted...since it was through our efforts that Vp and lcm were able to masquerade as a legitimate ministry.... [This message was edited by rascal on March 11, 2004 at 13:42.]

Ahhh ok Trefor...now why didn`t *I* see that? Ya know... we used to scorn catholics so for having to go through a priest/confession in order to have access to God...funny how twi practice became nearly identical with leadership and their direct line to God and things spiritual. Very well lifted...pt is ok I guess except that it then appears as if I have misrepresented something or have something to hide....I wish that you would clarify here because it looks as if I have lied about something.... I cannot think of an instance where that would be the case.

Thanks for the support lifted...there are times when sharing that personal stuff is so shamefull...so embarassing..I tend to be kind of touchy...and might over react to critisism of us or justification for acts perpetrated. I need to ask though... What did I recant? I try very hard to be honest in what I post, so that I won`t have to. lol trefor...you mean face melting..spittle flying..vein popping rage ISN`T in the catagory of *rightious* anger??

Aww DAMN George...is THAT where we went wrong??? I can see it all so clearly ..............I now hang my head in shame for letting down all of mankind...sigh

Pat.... good points. I think that in my case anyway...That in focusing on the minutae of the facts...the single minded absorption of *mastering* the principles and techniques of scriptures ...in reality I was steared away from life, family, God, logical thought process...personal goals and desires...there was no room for anything but the persuit of spirituality through study of twi doctrines.

Oldies...I was involved in the same ministry, as you well know...from 79 through the early 90s...the stuff I listed happened as early as 1980...is that twi ONE enough for you? The garbage started from the time I was a lowley twiggy throughtout tc...app corpes spouse corpes..in other words...at all levels of my involvement. It wasn`t all corpes I met...many truly WERE wonderfull, caring Godly people...(my husband was one_) so I have NO doubt that you might have had caring compassionate leadership in your experience....that does NOT however mean that was the norm for the rest of the country... ugliness happened with enough consistancy with different individuals throughout my time involved that shows the idiocy not to be just isolated incidences....or administrations. The worst of the corpes nazi`s, the ones that thought screaming and bullying into submition were acceptable forms of coersion...in my experience were (some of) the ones trained under vpw in the late 70s.

Disagree all you please...however, Your personal reasons for remaining are not any body elses but your own for staying involved... I refute your theory, for that is all it is. The pressure applied to many of us through scriptural black mail was enough to prevent many of us from leaving...even when things became abusive, and untenable. The pressure of not wanting to lose friends and break up marriages held many in bondage as well.... Your proclomation that the majority of us stayed for so long because of benefits recieved....is wrong Shoot if you think so many stayed because twi was so special...why don`t you start a poll and SEE how why folks stuck around for so long?

Your assumptions about the length of our involvement in twi is in error ....oldies The REASON some of us stayed 10 15 20 years ...is that even when we hated being a part of twi.......we were told that to leave meant we were posessed...we risked death by leaving the protection of God`s household...we were out to lunch spiritually and our family and friends would no longer risk speaking to us... It was flat out FEAR that twi instilled in us with their wrong teachings that kept many of us involved in spite of the horrors endured..... It had very little to do with actually recieving anything of benefit.

*We* did at first oldies...and then it got to be a push to have a *newbie* in every class... If you DIDN`T have a new student...you were yelled at...*What the heck is wrong with your believing*? *Where did you Blow it*? *If you don`t have a new person in this class...you are a bump on the log spiritually*...you are no good to God*....all crap that I heard on various occasions....your spirituality rested DIRECTLY on how many students you provided....and after the class was run......it was started all over again...... Yeah...just LOVED turning folks on to THAT crap oldies.

How about the locals around the root lacations...who spent one weekend a month on improving the campuses...free labor...because they were *our* property...they belonged to *us* the believer...our abs bought it...so we were told... it was our free labor...the way corpes labor that fixed those places up and made them habitable...only to here that twi sells em for pittance and pockets the cash....

Oh OH...what about the way corpes chalet...alla the private donations...thousands of free hours of donated time and labor invested by corpes because they were told that itt would be a place for them to stay when they visited hq???? The contributers NEVER got to set foot in it... upon completion it was immediatly seized and converted into a *private* residence...grrrrr

Exactly juan...that cold sick feeling...realising that we weren`t allowed to have friends or activities...everything had to be viewed as an access to new people for the class...I felt devious...dirty I remember feeling like a kid in high school again having to sell oranges door to door....only not having nearly so good a product.. If someone wasn`t involved or interested in twi...we were not to waste our time with them...not allowed to have them in our lives...that included family and life long friends... Pets too...I was blasted...a top of the lungs ..screaming full blown face melting confrontation because I cared for the damaged sick animals from the pet shop that I worked at instead of having the vet put them down....my room ...in a house that I paid the rent....just a parakeet or two and a hamster...Gawd what a sinner. But hey...how was THAT going to help me move the word...My horses...ditto...they simply took time and resources away from moving the word... *Pius Pimp* describes EXACTLY how I felt once embarked upon the path of service to God.... Whats wierd is...I didn`t link the bleakness of the picture with it being wrong...just deeply discouraged that THIS was what God required of me for the rest of my life...it never dawned on me that it wasn`t necessary.

damn (((cw))) That corpes sponsorship...yeah you were their *special* friend...oh so spiritual for helping to make a leader for the movement of God`s word......as long as you were sending them money...but when they graduated...you weren`t worthey to wipe their feet on... I remember feeling pretty bad when I started going to the much vaunted limb *leadership meeting for the first time...and just being divided up into pairs and dropped off all over town for *witnessing*...I saw clearly for the first time that the rest of my life I was going to have to hawk pfal in order to maintain my spirituality...it was so depressing You were also extra spiritual if you were working all your spare weekends cleaning up either the limb home or root location.... Everything distastefull you were asked to do...was so that you could grow spiritualy

Thank you IMF.

Ana...it is dissapointing to see the *in your face* attitude concerning the outrage we feel about what vpw did to your sisters. I remember you being much more compassionate than that. Dunno what has changed in your life.......but it seems to coinside with the rise in your apreciation for anything vpw...that is a shame..for I miss my kind friend. Cathy

Ummm wouldn`t be able to pastor a congregation?? Galen..He wasn`t...he was fired.... Guess why??