rascal

That wasn`t the letter we recieved on the field pirate...(notice this was addressed to staff) I think that is why the responses to lcm`s demads were different...by the time we recieved our version on the field......he was backing us in the corner...no room to wiggle...no other responce than loyalty to lcm was acceptable.

Yeah...THATS it! Lolly Poppy....tell us please, WHAT section of the country your fellowship is in...maybe we could ALL come there and enjoy the benefits you speak of....maybe we could all hold up your fellowship as an example to the REST of twi as how to run a successfull spiritually nurturing place! Maybe your fellowship can SAVE the rest of the ministry lolly poppy!

You know hope, I guess you have a point...some leaders did remain *real* but as you said it seems to me they were driven out or shunted to the side... After a while it seemed like we were only a means to an end with our leadership...keep us built up.... *happy* so we would preform to standard...witnessing... classes...numbers were always the measuring stick and standard for excellence in any area I was in....seemed like we were only valuable as long as we were producing...

Woah...who ARE you...and what have you done with our REAL lolly poppy? lol fair nuff...long as you realise that YOUR fellowship is not necessarily the norm for the rest of twi...either

Remain and give him the benefit of the doubt???? WE WEREN`T ALLOWED!!!!! Watch my lips.....one more time ...we were NOT allowed. Keep changing what was asked oldies...make it sound nicer...that doesn`t make it true...it wasn`t a clean slate being asked....it was unquestioning uncompromising loyalty...

Sudo....your` gonna bring some more *better`n sex* stew this year ...right? Oak, you gonna be issuing any more doctorates this year? Maybe THAT could be a drawing card...*free doctorate* for anyone who showes up! Shell...that is dissapointing...can we do anything to change your mind?

You know...anither thing about many of those *good* leaders (not all)....I noticed that as soon as you were no longer in their area of *responsibility*....they were no longer your best friend, spiritual confidante, brother in christ....etc....you were no longer of any iomportance. People you had learned to love...to pray for ...to do whatever you could for....when you saw them at roa...they had no use for you any more.. After a while I got pretty cynical about every leader who came along pretending to be my best buddy...wanting me to believe that they were vitally interested in my life ...wanting only the very best for me....blech

This reminds me of the whole athletes of the spirit fiasco.... LCM came to the advanced class ...he was so excited about having seen the *staying alive* movie with John Travolta....there was a scene where in the production John Travolta was doing involving a battle with devil spirits....Lcm was all hepped up about how twi could do it better ....more accuratly more skillfully more dramatically...yada yada ...and thus the conception of aos was born...simply because HE, lcm wanted to show the wolrd how twi could do it bigger and better than Holly wood ever could...... You know........even vpw couldn`t dissuade him from it.... That ws the way it always was when I was in twi....if they hadn`t done it first....it wasn`t worth doing... Twi`s critisisms are so childish.

They wanted to punish us oplain and simple.....real Godly and spiritual....the couldn`t do anything to mark....so it was me the only way they knew how....I felt like they were cutting off my very lifes blood...all because my husband wouldn`t play ball with them. These folks that I loved...my family...my brothers and sisters...I wasn`t good enough any more...it was UGLY...it was mean spirited...uncalled for and cruel...and for you to indicate that it was spiritual ...that it was acceptable and Godly ....es me off Oldies.... I guess it doesn`t matter what was done to us...how viley we were hurt...yet again, just as long as you personally had a little peace and was blessed eh?

We never bad mouthed...never thought evil...yet we were treated vilely...oldies...you are justifying their bad behavior ...again. You are making up scenarios where the bad behavior was for a good reason and justifyable... Tens of thousands of us .... folks who wanted to love and serve God...folks who wanted to support the ministry...folks who had no intention of ever not giving our best were ostracized...maligned and driven out...and here YOU are finding a way to make it appear not only acceptable but spiritual. It was awfull to have served for 15 years..participated in every class and every program...to have fully supported twi in everyway.....to all of a sudden be slime... We went from super believer...to spiritual waste...The shame ...the frustration...we KNEW we were the same people that we had always been...the ones who painted at root locations on the weekends....cleaned the limb homes...ran the pfal classes... supported every function...faithfully sent in our tithe...witnessed worked the word every morning...all of it...never shirked...and now all of a sudden we were on Satans side...yeah REAL spiritually sound decision...oldies ...when I look at those of us who were FORCED out....I have to wonder what was the source of that *spiritual* decision...if THIS was the kind of folks that were being targeted to leave. We were DRIVEN out...do you want to know WHY I quit going to fellowship ...in SPITE of the horrible treatment???? It`s like a bad joke really....They moved the God dam ned fellowship and wouldn`t tell me the new location...I even helped the dear ones pack ...and they wouldn`t reveal the location ...they wouldn`t even give me a telephone number....

Criminey ...I didn`t want to carp or complain...never critisized....just wanted to attend fellowship and continue being a vital part of God`s spiritual movement.... However because Mark wasn`t playing the game right....wasn`t buying into th politics...I was no longer allowed accesss ... Tell you what oldies...it might have been peacefull for you....but it wasn`t honest....the problems.... the evil was simply more ignorable if there was nobody there to point them out..... Peace at what price???

In your opinion What the hay....only in your opinion.... Although we never sent the loyalty oath ...I still was permitted to attend fellowship in the early 90s.... I was tolerated...they didn`t mark and avoid yet..they wanted me to convince mark that every thing really WAS ever so much better and that lcm was better than ever spiritually....a LOT of folks came back hoping that was true....unfortunatly...it was just the beginning of the nastiness coming.... I was allowed to attend fellowship...but never invited to have coffeee afterwards or go out with the other believers....no one was allowed to be friends with me because my husband wouldn`t swear a loyalty oath or accept a new corpes assignement....everyone was told we were spiritually suspicious....it was an invisible barrier between us that I couldn`t penetrate... The evil was still there what they hay.....they were just trying to mask it a little better....trying to win people back by appearing to be a little nicer.... I vividly remember the change after the homo purge roa...after that we were completely ignored...people were so afraid of me...people who had known and loved me for over 15 years.....could not even frigging GREET me at fellowship...could not sit by me....I guess they figured if I was totally and completely ignored.....I would go away of my own accord.... I t was heartbreaking. What is wierd is...I din`t equate their behavior with THEM being screwed up....I blamed mark for being stubborn and placing us on the outside of the love of our brothers and sisters....shoot there wasn`t anything I wouldn`t or hadnt done for thos folks....and they couldn`t even bear to speak or look at me....it was a bitter bitter pill to swallow...

Amen Wayback.....amen....that was just about the most succinct description of my experience in twi I have ever read.

Again oldies...it was NOT a letter of support that we were asked to send...it was an OATH of LOYALTY!!! It wasn`t like we got our panties in a wad and decided to leave in a huff....It took much prayerfull consideration of what was being asked.....our letter was very clear as to what was being demanded.....We mourned our decision ...it was not an easy choice to make... We were very unhappy to have been put in that position....it tore us up to have to refuse a direct request from the head of what we believed to be God`s ministry... .... we were told NOT to give him the standing with God *CRAP*!! Standing with God was crap...ok??? We did not think standing with God was crap....period....we had already had direct experience with Craigs lack of discernment abilities on several occasions....we KNEW what swearing an oath of loyalty entailed....we knew what we were promising to do....and Mark had the integrity to go against all that we held dear...all that we felt important in this life....and refused.... He knew that his loyalty was to God and no man. I mourned his decision for us at the time...but in hind sight I can say that I have never been prouder.

Oak..I don`t beat ANYBODY up....shame on you! However...it ISN`T just my faulty memory here...I am a little offended....you have more than one other poster backing me up on the wording of the letter sent to those of us on the field. Maybe the first two letters that went out to staff and paid corpes on the field were not so blunt...so cut and dry...but the one that came out to those of us out on the field was nasty...belligerant and uncompromising....there were no options....no explanations...refusal to be bullied resulted in ugly backlash... The wording of that letter is burned in my brain oak.....it HAD to be very, very CLEAR what was being demanded...as Mark and I were completely committed to serving in twi for the rest of our lives....we never concieved of a life outside of twi....and continued serving as best we could in SPITE of the lack of decency shown because of our refusal to comply with a demand that wasn`t Craigs to make. He was not right on....The man in charge of twi our ministry...the one we trusted with our lives.....was not spiritual sound.......we had to face that reality for the first time...we had to for the first time in both our adult lives stand up and say no to our leadership....neither of us had ever contemplated NOT doing what our leaders and ministry deemed necessary for God.....we were completely sold out....for God`s sake oak...I aborted a wanted child oas per *recomendation* from leadership......I was SOLD out!!! Do you honestly think that our refusal was not seriously, carefully considered ...and at last mournfully refused to be bullied into a wrong action????? All of a sudden ....we are faced with the reality that these people are demanding loyalty..not to God...not to the ministry....not to the movement of his word....but to a man....one who was mean spirited...It HAD to be cut and dried oak....absolutely chrystal clear ...or we would have never EVER have considered non compliance. As others pointed out....what GOOD did it do for the ministry....those who even swore the oath lcm? The whole ministry was by then spiraling out of control....bearing the fruit of the rotten behavior physically and spiritually by those in charge. [This message was edited by rascal on March 23, 2004 at 7:29.]

As you can see by others responses oldies....it WAS more than just writing a letter of stand and support.... We were required to swear an oath...an oath of allegiance to LCM .... Well *MISTER* Lingo....lol I just guess he showed YOU didn`t he??? Thats what struck me as in our letter....how vindictivly childish....how hurtfull...

Time has shown just exactly how much damage sworn *loyalty* to LCM has caused.... It was not a good or Godly thing....our loyalty to LCM placed before our loyalty to God had awfull consequences.

No Oldies THAT wouldn`t have been so terrible at all...but THAT wasn`t what he demanded...was it? not by a long shot He DEMANDED a letter SWEARING an oath of LOYALTY to HIM!!!! Think about it...NOT an oath to help move the word...NOTY an oath to protect the ministry...NOT an oath to serve God...but an oath of loyalty to him...LC martindale...loyalty to stand with him ...think about what that means.... I thank God that Mark had more integrity than that at the time than to cave into the pressure ....that he could clearly see what lcm was requiring. That line...*and don`t give me any loyalty to God crap* said it all.

Thing that kills me is that we never gave up...we never got bitter or negative....just tried to continue our spiritual duty. However for the ptb...that wasn`t enough.... we didn`t play by the playground bully`s rules...we were gonna pay.

Oldies...that was NOT what he said...he said we were USELESS!!! period....he said it he DECLARED that we...we whom had served unselfishly....unquestioningly...loyal with every fiber of our being.... for 15 friggin years accepitng whatever assignement...suggessted....that we were salt that had lost it`s savor....USELESS..FIT ONLY TO BE CAST IN THE STREET and TRODDEN under the feet of BEASTS!!!!!!! He didn`t differentiate between ministry and God...we were USELESS period.

Oldies we didn`t leave at the time...had no desire to.....never had any intention of leaving....we were simply declared *spiritual waste* by lcm. We attended fellowships for several more years...but from then on...we were treated with suspicion...and at times badly because of our refusal to write the loyalty oath... We took it on the chin....never critisized never complained....never questioned....just suffered our indignity in silence and tried to quietly participate in a local felllowship... Like I said ...he couldn`t do anything to us but tell everyone that we were a *bump on the log* spiritually ....unwilling to do our duty to God and ministry...15 years of unflinching never wavering service to twi meant squat after that.

Dott that happened two or three years earlier....We were told not only DON`T go hear what Ralph and John Lynn had to say ...but IF someone we knew went and heard what they said....we must have no contact with them because they would have become possessed ...and we would be at dire risk for contamination ourselves.... I am ashamed to say that we shunned some really good friends who went to that meeting.

Thats NOT the letter that we recieved oldies....that is not what it said to the corpes on the field... I repeat...in our letter lcm said ...*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap* We weren`t employees...he couldn`t fire us...We weren`t tc`s so he couldn`t take our fellowship away....so he did the only thing he could...hurtled names at us and declaired us unspiritual....real mature.

It WAS an unreasonable request to make of folks ....no information...no exclamation...just chest beating by lcm ....simply a man in a ....ing contest....unfortunatly...he lost.