rascal

Oldies...NOBODY is espousing *helpless mindless victims* here....Not one single friggin poster ....NOBODY! Just point out one single person that is saying that vile thing about your sisters in Christ...you are just foul. What we ARE talking about is sadistic leaders whom used their power and authority...manipulated the trust invested in them as spiritual advisors....manipulated the scriptures to make their demands appear justified... they used scriptures to steal that which wasn`t theirs... However since you cannot seem to handle the true nature of your esteemed leaders it seems you must attempt to degrade and humiliate .... Again...when YOU say that you don`t believe what we have written ...you are INDEED calling us liars....

John...everything that you just wrote about me was assumptive on your part ...and dead wrong. What has how God has blessed and healed me from ... have ANYTHING to do with my personal responsibility??? I have NEVER denied it! However, I can and DO resent the HELL out of the men who used us outragiously for their own gain...who desperatly hurt my beloved brothers and sisters in christ..I can vehemently deny your attempts to whitewash who and what twi and their leaders truly were.... Umm oldies...didn`t the pharisees teach/utilise scripture as well? Simply because Mr.wierwille taught you some bible...doesn`t mean he wasn`t an a number one abusive ******* as were many of his hand picked favorites... I guess all in all ... we should be thankfull, as the price we were asked to pay for your knowledge of the bible wasn`t as steep as the price the people who learned the scriptures from Jim Jones or david Koresch...sigh

Glad to hear it Jesus Freaky....Definatly tent city...I am bringing my rv and have a couple of extra tents I can set up for added space....if someone wants to camp with us...Hawk usually does...as did Jard last year...the more tents we have...the greater barrier to keep us from annoying fellow campers... Since you are close some things you could help with are lawn chairs....maybe scoping out the campground...figuring out the best spot for a bunch of us to set up ahead of time....being a three day holiday we will have to get there early in order to have a place... I need to find out if they take reservations for camping ....

I heard mr.wierwille say those very same things as well...Why are you shaking your finger at folks for beliefs that wierwille expounded?

I told NO lies John....you and oldies BOTH have defended them and tried to minimalise the culpability.......now YOU stop calling ME a liar....and assuming lies about me and what *I* think about Jesus and his teachings..you have shown repeatedly that you haven`t got a CLUE concerning my spirituality ...myself OR my beliefs.....and so your perceptions of such are not to be trusted.

Thankyou Suniesis and ex ...Yes I have to say that God has indeed attempted to restore what the locusts devoured.... The two dogs that I was forced to give away, were unexpectedly returned to me a couple of years later...just before I left twi...and as for the rest.......lol I now have (I kid you not)...7 horses...7 dogs...and 7 kids......various and assundry other critters that have fallen under my care...oh yeah and ONE extwi husband that feels pretty put upon at times by his animal nut of a wife.. I swear that it wasn`t because I planned it this way....lol ... ya think maybe God has a sense of humor????

aww ((ex))) thanks for the hug...damn now you n vick`l make me cry... Our hurts...they are passed...we are older and wiser now....the love and support that all of you guys are able to show in SPITE of how we were treated is humbling.

Gullible, naieve, vulnerable, trusting...That indeed is what we were .........NOT whores...eager for a romp with a mog. These leaders took advantage of our trust...they used the authority garnered as a representative for God to put us at ease...to bypass our internal alarms......

I have got to say it....It just blows my MIND that you oldies and john want to defend these amoral creeps simply because they taught you a little *word*.... Guys...They HURT people...They USED people...They TOOK what was not theirs... People were destroyed because of their actions...Can you not see it??? These are NOT guys who worked for God....He just didn`t teach us in the bible to behave that way...They decieved us...drew us away from the true love that God had for us... Think about who`s purpose YOU are serving in defending and minimalizing the damage these people did to folks who simply wanted to love and serve God:-(

awww damn (((vick)) I know how frightened you must have been....bless you for having the guts to do what was right...I know the cost. I was a young naieve teen as well...with a parent who had no time or inclination to teach me what was right or wrong...then here comes twi teaching me about God...teaching me the bible...loving me...giving me a purpose...God needed me in the spiritual battle...I was important....I was a good person...all things desperatly longed for by a naieve lonely teen... So when the doctrine got a little strange...I still believed them...I mean shoot they were the onces who taught me about God...they HAD to be right..right?? And though I agonized over what was being demanded...there was no other choice in my mind...I had no one else ..I had long since been encouraged to cut ties with *natural* family and friends who would distract me from God and his word....anyone who might have been able to help me understand that God didn`t require me to forsake things of importance.. they were all long gone from my life... Oh and ditto the GROOOOOSS concerning *doing* the wrinkled old fart...or an entertaining threesome with old big haid...

I was taught that it was all emotions as well...even when I didn`t WANT to do something ...it was just my emotions/5 sense *tricking* me not to be my best for God...I could listen to my 5 senses or I could be spiritually pleasing to God by my obediance... I also was taught that if I felt something was drastically wrong with what a leader was asking me to do...it was simply satan just trying to trick me into not doing what God needed...two choices ..comply with leaderships request or allow satan to defeat me and God... Last but not least...if I ever DID manage to have a little backbone...I was treated very badly....I had been tricked...I was in danger of posession...and others should keep their distance less the be likewise in peril....I never wanted to put my friends...loved ones...the very body of christ in danger because I was being stiff necked. The psychological hold that they held was ultimate......I want to say as well, that the power the leader weilded...was not because we were weak or imoral or undisciplined....the choices we made were terribly difficult....It was never easy... Oldies and for you to intimate that it is because we were weak or should have known better is yet another slap in the face... These guys HAD the power and they used it to hurt...rather than to work for good..they had a choice...their actions depict just EXACTLY what kind of men they were...and it wasn`t men of the spirit.

Vickles ... I was taught the same thing:-( Do what the leader says because he walks for God...and IF he is wrong, God HAS to cover and protect you.... No I was never aproached sexually by a Mog...but my wow sister was...Some of what I WAS asked/required to do by leaders... that were never the less soul wrenching...( some suggestions of course were tougher than others to obey) .. were to sell the horses that I dearly loved...stop working in the mounted possee which I enjoyed tremendously...... get rid of my wonderfull faithfull Dogs that had traveled with me throughout my ten plus years in twi....leave my family..sell my car to my tc for next to nothing leaving myself without transportation.....and worst of all abort my child... I cannot express the misery endured ...the soul wrenching heart breaking shame of being required to follow some of these instructions.... EACH one of these decisions were agreed too brokenly...after much agonizing over what my debt and responsibility to God were..... EACH went against what I wanted or believed to be right... each agreed to in the end because I knew that God required me to obey these men... However .....as horribly wrong as each decision was...as desperatly as I didn`t want to do it...as heartbreaking as each decision was to enact and then endure the shame and consequences of...when my mind and heart screamed at how wrong it was....I did it...brokenly ...sickend to the depths of my soul....because above all else...Iwas afraid to disobey and dissapoint God...I was afraid of the consequences of not being meek... To disobey my leader was a finger in the face of God and I was made to feel that I owed him a whole lot more than that. Oldies...I say it again in all honesty...no dramtics......I would have found a loaded gun to have been a whole lot less intimidating. Physical death held no fear for me... spiritual degredation, however...spiritual posession... contamination of the body of Christ with my vileness as the consequences of not being meek...of being rebellious or stiff necked......was terrifying.

Sadistic leader requires sex from the pretty girls as part of his mogly perks...but it`s REALLY ok because those girls (many of them teens) ...all wanted/needed/deserved the attention of the almighty mog ..... Because the mogs didn`t behave with the decency ...honor and character required of a man of the spirit...it really is STILL ok because it was all the girls fault for providing the temptation to begin with.. Besides that it wasn`t REALLY all that bad these girls are all just whiney crybabies that want to remain in *victim* mode...they should all just get over it .. have I got it right oldies n John?? Imbus....I applaud your willingness to try to be understanding and forgiving of these creeps....but I guess that I know too many people who have been visciously abused ...who DON`T in turn visit some form of sadistic behavior on others (read Monty Roberts` book *The man who listened to horses* for an outstanding example) I think that to excuse the mogs because of their tough upbrining is wrong....it is a measure of the calibibur of the CHARACTER ... the morality of the individual to overcome and resist the temptation to *take it out* on someone else... I think that if we are true honestly deeply spiritual men and women (as twi leaders portrayed themselves to be) we WILL manifest those fruit of the spirit listed in galations ...LOVE peace gentleness temperance joy LOVE longsuffering LOVE...lol you get the idea verses a ..lying fornicating adulterous strife causing hate filled man of the *flesh* We will manifest these attributes in SPITE of any difficulties endured in our upbringing....it`s an inside *thing* ...something that we don`t fake. If they had TRULY been men of the spirit...the men they presented themselves to be.......they would have shown the fruit of the spirit in their lives...I think they were faking it...probably even managed to fool themselves... Read the final chapter of galations and tell ME which attributes most of the top leadership of twi displayed...and what God recomends we do consccerning those individuals who are identified as being men after the *flesh*.........

It TAKES mind control to allow yourself to be used for the mogs sexual pleasure.... It TAKES mind control to coerce people into aborting wanted children... It TAKES mind control to throw our much loved though disobediant children out on the streets at leaderships insistance.... It TAKES mind control to convince family members and friends to turn their backs forever on a loved one... It TAKES mind control to prevent members from turning in leaders whom abuse members into law enforcement.... It WAS mind control that enabled leadership to convince us that these things the things they wanted ...were required by God.... There are no Godly rewards or mythical treasures stored away for some future date.....that is just another smarmy way of making what we endured seem just a little bit ok...... The women who were cast aside for not complying were hurt beyond endurance... ....the women who DID comply and were consequently cast aside when their usefullness exhausted...were hurt beyond endurance as well........there was no right or wrong decisions.....only very vile evil men exercising their power and control over people that looked to them for the answeres promised when we all took pfal.... You oldies need to look at the source of the supposed *good* you recieved....look at the fruit in the lives of these men...overwhelmingly they manifest the fruit of the flesh..... very little spiritual attributes... Could it be that the small amount of good you recieved was simply the hook or snare that dragged you into a corrupt evil organisation ...one that hijacked the good intentions of people whom were looking to God for answeres....one that used and then callously cast aside precious saints....any ONE of whom Jesus talked about being so precious and valuable that the shepherd would leave his entire flock to search untill they were found and rescued....one whoms leaders set out to visciously destroy the life and reputation if they DIDN`T comply explicity with their directives...these abusers of precious saints...these thieves of resources intended for God are the very men you are defending at the expense of your spiritual brothers and sisters....are you one of them?? (((Imbus))) even that would not be enough to convince one to shed the scales covering their eyes I am afraid...

You haven`t bought it....I know ... you are calling all those that have come forth liars... You have to do this in order to preserve your illusion of twi...make it really seem like twi was ok...otherwise face your culpability anf realise you were fooled.....I understand....really I do...but don`t think I will allow your insult and accusations against us to go unchallenged. There are many FAR to many women who have come forth with the same allegations... I personally have met in my tiney little world... THREE different women who were thrown out of twi for non compliance with the mogs sexual demand....each of them were declared possessed so that no one would listen to their side of the story....each of them thrown out of whatever program they were participating in at the time....all three of them lost EVERYTHING...their friends their families....aquaintances...their percieved spirituality...their homes...their connection with the body of christ...the rightly divided word of God that couldn`t be found any where else....each of them believed that they would die without the protection of God that had been withdrawn...each was made to feel as if it was their lack of spirituality and thought that they had gone mad....we know at least three MORE here at gspot that have corroborated the stories.... Wafer, thanks... you are probably right... and . have a good point......but so long as oldies is pointing his finger and calling them/us liars ...I will be in his face to refute those accusations..... It is twi leadership evil all over again....he wants to discredit those telling the truth so that nobody will listen...

Ummm those required to service the mogs as their spiritual responsibility weren`t sexually humiliated? It doesn`t compare?? Maybe because you weren`t required to *do* the wrinkled old fart or required participation in threesoms with the great lcm as part of your spiritual *duties* Maybe you have no idea the depths of the humiliation or degradation experienced by twi women. Compulsion is compulsion whether it is intimidation...by gun/knife/superior physical force or spiritual manipulation and intimidation....

Oldies...just because YOU didn`t do these things out of fear certainly does NOT negate the point that was made about sadistic leadership demanding what which we did not wish to give....and brandishing the authority given themselves by scripture AS the loaded gun pointed at our heads. Yes we, many of us WERE forced into compliance....scripture was the weapon that gave them the power to steal that which was not theirs.

It applies....you have fear of death from a bullet.....fear of death spiritually which would result in degradation and eventual physical death.... It is fear of death either way that motivates us to do that which we normally would not. Even bigger than the fear of physical death is the fear of dissapointing God or worst of all getting possessed. WHY did we fear these things worse than any live physical bullet??? A) We were under the impression that these guys taught us the word AND will of God... B) We trusted these people who taught us scripture ...believing that they had pure motives and wanted the best for our lives... C) We were taught by these people whom had built this trust that if we did not obey leadership first time everytime...we would be stiff necked/open for possession/let Satan into our lives which would result in our degredation and destruction.... You had folks teach us enough scripture to win our trust and lend themselves an aura of respectability....requiring things on God`s behalf....the things I was required to do ....I did for God...there is no man/ knife/ or gun that could have induced some of the actions that were required to comply with... Funny thing though...I look back and see that GOD didn`t want or need these things...*I* desperatly didn`t want to DO these things....WHO did????? Oh yeah it was twi leaders THEIR desires THEIR agendas ...THEY profited......... I would have scoffed at a gun or knife or any other form of physical danger....but the threat of not being spiritual enough...not being pleasing to God was enough to make me cringe..and obey with alacrity whatever was being demanded. Most of us saw what happened to ANYONE who dared disobey leadership....they always dissapeared and we were told horrible stories about their spiritual unworthiness...and how they had let Satan take over.... Oldies maybe you weren`t required to take those those soul wrenching actions........ maybe that is why you are in denial...Whatever the reason........ it is pretty ignorant of you to sit back in your computer chair and decide what pressures were applied...deny the very existance of the force that was used to coerce the rest of us into actions against our better judgement...(I`d say will but speaking personally...I had none at all at that point) .... be it with Gun or scripture

Yeah....obediance to leadership = obediance to God.... Disobey leaders and you were letting down the God who loved you and had done so very much for you..... A leaders request was tantamount to an order to one who wanted to be spiritually *sharp* You know oldies you keep using the same tired *gun to the head* analogy....yet I really DID believe that I would die if I disobeyed leaderships directives... If you wanted to grow with God ...If you wanted to love God....if you wanted to express your apreciation for the miracles wrought....... it was simple...you just had to obey leadership first time every time....because God would always tell them first, anything of importance for your life.... I was told that if I didn`t obey, that I would be letting God down ...I wasn`t meek... and that God would be dissapointed...that I would let satan in to my life destruction of all I loved was inevitable... Fear worse than that of death by a bullet was the threat of being posessessed as a result of being stiff necked... I would have been less afraid of a gun held to my head.

womens advances deserve an honorable mention at least....I kid you not in over ten years, the theme NEVER varied ....always teaching us how to be better women by learning to serve our men better...GAWD they were disgusting....not to mention impractical since most of us were single....sheeshe

Damn right she knew oldies ... dott matrix can atest to this... I know that Mrs. W said that when she caught on to his shenanigans...when she got upset...he got very nasty and said * if you don`t like it...you can just get the hell out. She had no place to go....as I understand it her mother was nearly impossible to live with ...which I kind of figure is why she ran off with ole vp in the first place....poor thing looking for love ...and ends up with such a mean ****.... Her words at his funeral said it all...*he was a mean, mean man*

Lol...it is an open invitation to ALL... Shell I guess if you want a committee...you will have to organise it and head it up... However since EVERYBODY is invited...it could be an undertaking to send out all of those invitations...but suit yourself! Digi...we will harness up the horse dog to do any pulling needed....It is my hope however, that it will not be necessary ... I guess that places you in charge of any escape`s necessary....including quick exits due to visits by law local enforcement again....

Good Pat....hold their feet to the fire........As long as you keep shining the legal light on em...they have to keep their noses particularly squeaky clean....ie KNOWING that thy are under scrutiny forces them to curtail some of their more nefarious activities....imo

I don`t think that they would like it there much anyway JT...too many wholesom characters around for any of THEM to feel comfortable... There won`t be any more power to lord over the rest of us....poor things, they won`t BE the big dawgs anymore ... No more money to extort...no more naieve young girls to seduce......I have a sneaking suspicion that spittle flying vein popping face meltings will be frowned upon as well.... Whats left? Oh...I know...maybe there will be a room where they can all get snockered and try to impress each other with how much *scripture* they can quote!!....shudder Personally, I think that with all of their favorite activities curtailed.... they will be miserable...

deleted....wrong thread........