rascal

I never EVER called (edited to add I did call the leaders *cowards who hid behind God`s word*) one a coward ...coward was NOT *my word* mj... that is a lie...nor did I EVER intimate that ANYONE in the corpes were..... (oldies said I did but that was a complete lie and misrepresentaion of what I posted) please... reread the thread ...I don`t think you have read or understand my point at all....the ONLY editing that *I* have done is to add on to my existing post....but I suppose you will label THAT as a lie as well? Consider What else might you have mis read or misrepresented that I have written.....not that I expect you to have the integrety or courage to apologise......anymore than oldies. Let me say again...I have the deepest respect for those who cared enough about God to put their lives on the line....I understand the desire to love and serve God to the point that you put your whole life aside....THAT isn`t cowardly....it takes a lot of guts Whether I made the right choice and or wrong or whether other peoples choices who were in the same position ...whether they were right or wrong....the right of twi to enforce their rules.....none of these is at issue. It was the fact that they enforced those rules with the teaching that God required this ..GOD didn`t ask...REQUIRED....compliance(wish I could highlight this) It wasn`t a choice of leaving because I made a mistake and could no longer follow the rules...it was you are breaking your vow to God and HE will be ....ed...and you will suffer horrendous consequences. It was easy to decline to participate in the way corpes or wow program...however..when I was brought back and badgered about how not only was I lying to twi...but God ...and how he delt with vow breakers.....thats when all of those other pressures and teachings were brought into play... Dissapoint twi...live in shame for unfinished commitments were things that I could handle...and was going too ..Going against God himself ...after all I felt he had done was What RIGHT did THEY have to say to us *you do these things because God requires it*?? All of these things you accuse me of mj...does not change one whit twi`s teaching about fetus...I still don`t understand how my current personal beliefs...my remorse.. or my personal story even comes into play.....

Mj..WHO are you claiming that I said was cowardly??? STOP putting words in my mouth...I never called ANYBODY cowardly or intimated that ANYBODY should have made my choice or any other....damn I have no problem with abiding with the corpes program.... What I DO for the umpteenth time...have a MAJOR issue with is leadership claiming that GOD demanded this of me......Why are you turning it into something else? Read this carefully mj....Not twi demanded this ...not leaders thought this was best...GOD demanded it...ok???? this is what I have a problem with...THEY did NOT have the right to decide that God needed me to kill this fetus. I did leave the corpes program...wrote my letters...left the wow field to have the child...thats when the coersion began....and pressure to fullfill my commitment began... Whether it was ordering an unwanted abortion...demanding the casting out of a disobediant child to the streets...forcing themselves sexually on women...face meltings...all was endured and complied with because we were TAUGHT that God demanded this of us...it was wrong...God needed or desired nothing of the sort.

I have exagerated nothing...and for you to say so.......nice polite name for liar btw......because YOU cannot accept the depths of depravity of our special little group is ugly. I don`t know why you need to make me or others whom experienced identical treatment look bad...I do not understand why it is important for you to try to maligne or misrepresent me and my positions on things in an attempt to discredit and cause folks to mistrust our accounts....... as much as you hate me for pointing out the flaws in our rosey little way world...you have no business pointing your finger at me and attacking my veracity.. I have no reason to lie I have no reason after nearly 15 years of being out to make up stories.You think I LIKE any of this??? that I get some kind of sick thrill out of titillating you with my over the edge stories??? There is something ugly and not right about you. Thanks Goey...thanks Raf...dmiller...I don`t know what to do with one who wont listen and wants to prevent others from giving my accounts credence by branding me a liar......I only know that it makes me feel dirty all over again...

Hey shaz...no problem I wasn`t addressing the name dropping I was just addressing the issue that we...pat and jason included all have very important imput...just cause we don`t personally always *get* it doesn`t mean there is no merrit... I encourage Jason to post so that we have yet another facet in our overall view point and understanding.

It`s all so cut n dried to you isn`t it oldies? I didn`t HAVE a home to go to...many of us had given up everything to be God`s spiritual elite...ya know sold everything for have tuition...given up our jobs...and apartments...show our trust and believing don`tcha know....God would take care of everything just had to step out on our believing...cut ties with worldly friends and family.... Just WHERE would you suggest a pregnant woman with no money or transportation head to oldies??? Any suggestions? Can`t depend on bretheren....you are now spiritual waste....can`t depend on family...you have offended them all years prior with your stand for God...and having no friends when it comes to the word! On the OTHER hand everything could be fixed with one sterile little procedure... honor restored...integrety remains ....level of spiritual maturity unquestionable...God would be proud of you family would love and respect you...no harm no foul...satans ploys at decieving you into denying God foiled..right? Undoubtedly... God is impressed and pleased with my demonstrated outstanding level of commitment...

Oldies ditto what I said to mj they DID say this to me...and F-**** you for calling me a liar. Shall I add to what was said??? It is burned in my memory. Your heart never WAS to go corpes if you let ANYTHING as inconsequential as an unplanned pregnancy or marriage prevent you from entering the program once signed on. If You break your vow that you made to God...you are a liar...just look at what happened to annanias and safira..when THEY lied to God... Look at what happened to the believers throughout the bible that became *stiff necked* cause they didn`t obey God.... Your saying that it didn`t happen won`t make it so oldies... Think about the scum you are defending...the practices that you are saying are ok...think about why you despise me and those who have the nerve to stand up and say ..*This was WRONG*!

Yes mj they DID tell me that in order to be a dulos that I had to abort the wanted child....don`t you sit behind you moniter 19 years after the fact and tell ME what THEY said! Where the heck do you get off sitting behind that moniter all complacent THINKING you know what they said to me???? Placing motives and assigning me inapropriate labels??? They DID say that if I loved God I would honor the vows I made to HIM...not to twi not to a groups rules...those, believe me..I could have flaunted. But when it came down to dissapointing God...seperating myself from his love and protection ...seperation from fellowhip with my beloved bretheren..placing me in danger of spiritual degredation and possession....I simply couldn`t bring myself to dissobey God. Why are you standing up for these cowards who hid behind God and used the bible as their weapon to ensure complete obedience? They DID say that God almighty ruler of the heavens and earth demanded THIS of ME IF I were truly a dulos. Not twi rules demanded not leaders demanded...God demanded...THAT is what is wrong. Why must you make it seem as if my outrage at what these evil men perpetrated on good hearted christians seem like it is missplaced. I think that there is something wrong with sweeping it all under the rug and pretending that everything was just hunky dory in way world. If folks don`t realise that we were taught by evil men...it may be years if EVER it dawns on folks to question the false ungodly teachings.

What does my current belief have to do with what twi leaders taught as God`s standard and insisted I follow???? How does THIS negate the fact that because an umplanned pregnancy interfered with my ability to serve God...that I must abort a wanted baby? How does THIS change the fact that twi leadership represented abortion as God`s demand of a dulos??

Geeze Mj...I don`t want punishment...I am not begging for attention....I am not moaning oh hhh woooe is me...I was so mistreated.... What I AM doing is simply making folks aware of the evil wrought by men purporting to serve God.....I want people to stop saying that *twi was Godly* because I recieved some personal benefit... Once people realise that what we were taught...was designed by men whom were practicing great evil in their personal lives... it opens the door to healing...freedome from a lifetime of striving to live up to a goofey standard that was never God`s will in the FIRST place. So spare me your guessing about my mental state...mj... you even READING what I wrote? I doubt it, as your view of me and my motives is pretty far off the mark... distorted...you are seeing things and attributing characteristics to me that are not mine.... Now...if we are finished psycho analysing me and my motives for staunch defense of the believes whom were mistreated outragiously in God`s name....verses the support of twi and it`s leaders as Godly caring individuals....back to the topic at hand...

Ok...away from Cathy is a pooh pooh haid cause oldies doesn`t agree ..and back to the subject at hand ....Twi taught the women whom were pregnant that A) the fetus must not interfere with their commitment to God...you must not be a breaker of vows...if you do you are a liar. B) the fetus was not alive till it took it`s first breath....cause adam wasn`t alive till God breathed into him... C) the fetus had less value than a real life because the penalty for killing someone and causing a woman to *loose her fruit* were different. D) the fetus was a parasite because it could not exist without the *host* E) A fetus was nothing more than some cells that needed removal in order for a woman to comply with God`s directive. Combine all of this with the doctrine of spiritual maturity demands implicit obedience of a leaders every suggestion...that to follow the instructions even when wrong would result in prosperity because God would honor the heart....and you have some pretty heavy coersion.

I never SAID they were aiding and abetting murder...EVER..stop lying..what I SAID was that twi leadres INSISTED that it was God`s Demand that I destroy the unborn child that I wanted...PERIOD!!! Hell of a thing for God`s leaders to teach to insist.

God oldies.. .I agree...absofrigginlutely on THAT point! What I share IS excedeingly morbid....but consider the reason being is simply because what I and many others endured WAS EXCEDEINGLY HORRIBLY MORBID!!!!! I endured it I experienced it ...others endured...others experienced evebn WORSE at the hands of twi leaders...It WAS FRICKEN morbid to endure these things at the hands of those whom we trusted to teach us God`s word...it was SICK it was WRONG and it was EVIL! What happened to us those of us mistreated was NOT in any way shape or form Godly...... That it happened to ONE of us would be too many...but it happened over and over and over...and yet you wanna say that yeah...but it was STILL ok cause *I* had a good time....geeze... Well what happened to us in God`s name WASN`T good ..it wasn`t God`s will nor Godly in anyway...it never will be.

There ya go Jason...write and share about what you do know...it will be helpfull to many...remind us...you have a totally unique pov with totally different insights that are very important. However, please don`t discount the fact that because all the stuff here doesn`t always personally serve your interest or need currently ....does not mean that there isn`t an importance in the sharing for someone somewher at a different point in their healing and life. I`d suggest before you start throwing rocks at Pat...or any other poster ...considering that maybe he serves in a very important albeit different function in the aiding of the healing of *outies* or the aid of innies getting out...and the eventual destruction of twi. We don`t always see the bigger picture nor the importance of each poster here or who`s and what need they are meeting....simply because you don`t see eye to eye ...doesn`t mean they don`t serve a very important funcion :-)

and there YOU go attacking the veracity of the poster ...trying to belittle or maligne in order to make it appear that their pov is of no value. There WAS no choice if you wanted to remain spiritually strong...acceptable to God...worthey of fellowship with your spiritual brothers and sisters.. If you didn`t give a damn about God or didn`t mind spiritual posession ostracisation from the body of christ...certain death spiritually and physically....than of course you had all of the options in the world.

You are building straw men oldies....you are attatching a meaning to my posts that are not there.... You are claiming foul and insult where none is given.... My condemnation is for those who claimed that God required this of us. I have never said that I was against pro choice...I believe that it is very important to be allowed that choice.... What is SICK is that there was no *choice* if you wanted to remain in good spiritual standing...

Oldies...come on ...the only reason that you call me a liar is because my experience and insight into twi`s evil...doesn`t jive with the rosey picture that you want to believe. Every single thing that I have ever posted has been truth....All has been backed up by other posters who were treate dsimilarly...why is it so important for you to hold to the illusion that was painted for you to the point that you close your mind to the facts? Whay is you illusion so important that you must treat your fellow posters, brothers and sisters in christ badly ...call them liars when they have simply exposed the evil practiced in twi?

Nope ..what I AM saying is that we did things that were abhorrant to us to God ...because leadership told us that God demanded this of us. I never said that we were all perpetrators of abuse...what I SAID was that we suffered unneccessary abuse...and at times we (some of us) perpetrated abuse...believing (due to wrong teaching by leaders we trusted) that it was God`s will. Murdering unborn babies and hurting one another in GOD`S name and under the guise of spirtitual commitment...now THAT is sick... Stop twisting the meaning of my post ...acting like you are getting your panties in a wad over something I never said...and trying to stir up sentiment against a poster because you cannot successfully refute a point.

The BIGGESt thing that I don`t miss is being able to talk and hang out with people WITHOUT the pressure of having an ulterior motive in the back of my mind of needing someone new in the next class in order to maintain my spiritual standing....no more stomache churning anxiety of high pressure sales being applied to motivate ...it os SO nice to be able to just enjoy people now:-)

You are lieing yet again oldies...what a suprise.....yet another attempt to misrepresent a poster.... As far as my opinion of the corpes...Our hearts were pure...our desire sincere...our trust complete...which is WHY we were such easy marks for the consumption of those who would spitefully use us. I never EVER belittled corpes .. or will I...We were perhaps the ones who endured the greatest betrayal and had the most stolen from us.

Good point pat...I don`t suppose ANYBODY has the time required to do a thorough job of that...lol sorry.

Maybe Danny n the rest of us see soemthing in you through your posts that you don`t oldies.

WHOS thinking evil of those who made the corpes commitment????? Where do you see THAT in any of our posts??? *I* made that corpes commitment...my husband did...as did most of our friends...I thought we were one hell of a great group of people who loved God enough to seek to serve him for the rest of our lives ...to the utmost of our abilities. Too bad our talents drive and efforts were hijacked by self serving men.

yeah...the *chance* to be of further *service* to the body....probably why some were allowed to stay...women had something to offer that you didn`t....lucky us.

Pat, might oughtta have mentioned...that yeah....lcm is gone HOWEVER those who agreed/supported/covered for him ARE still in charge. Also the classes and books he designed while under the *infuence* are being taught and held in regard... Also...his ex wife and kiddoes STILL occupy the log mansion built by and for corpes ...that was stolen...dunno an awfull lotta unfinished business before your *ministry* can be considered *cleansed* and strong.... How bout YOU wafer getting *current* about the state of your damn ministry.

(((Danny))) I hear you...I understand that so very many of you guys had it just as heartbreakingly difficult. I never meant to imply that woe is me ...we ALL were treated abominably at one time or another.... I am so angry at what we endured at the hands of twi .... the evils that were perpetrated on us...our brothers and sisters...I KNOW that my sufferings pale in comparison to many....what blows my mind is that all of the suffering ..all of the sacrafice was all done in God`s name...we accepted the abuse ...in some cases we perpetrated the abuse... all the while convinced it was for GOD`S benefit....how sick is that?