rascal

testify sister Krys!!! So glad that I am not the only one willing to divulge this secret .... rofl (what a shame it took an accident to bring the comfort of boxers to your attention ;-) I never WILL go back...it`s kind of like the taste of freedome after leaving twi...who`d ever want to go back to their stuffy small world... Sounds like we might have a convert in Mary Kate hee hee!

Lol...Mary Cate...I can`t BELIEVE that we are talking about this either.... but here goes...we personally buy the mens 3 packs at walmart...100 percent cotton in the summer are very reasonable....button front flannels in the winter...good thing they are inexpensive lol because we fight over who finds em in the laundry first...hide em hord em....hey it happens with a house full of teen age women. Are you guys gonna be mad at me for contributing to a fad that encourages women to wear more *sensible* undergarments??? Maybe I need to change the statement under my name to *wears boxers* eh?

ROFL Galen....consider it duly noted...however, in my defense...we always wear our boxers UNDER our clothes thankyou very much... I guess it started with us because the boxers are much more practical under our karate ghi`s ... gradually we realised they were more comfy, as well as durable and cost effective... imagine ... you boys been keepin a good thing like boxers a secret all these years lol. P.S. TJohnny L. Though more expensive, the button front flannels are the boxers of choice with my girls....thus eliminating the need to sew.

Can`t help you boys, as I have joined my daughters and their teen girl friends newest trend and eschewed traditional womens underwear (it chafes)...we all wear boxers now:-)...Oh, I`m sorry was that tmi? Does that spoil the nice mind pics? Maybe it is really ok since some of us don`t look so good in thongs anymore anyway....lol

Excellent advice Imbus...Respect is so important....very difficult to achieve during my twi years....... Wow Bramble...he sounds like a Gem.... I think it was very hard NOT to be influinced by the example of leaders.... So glad that your marriage remained untainted by twi doctrine. You have my respect.

Damn straight....life has been immeasurably better since I have ceased *requireing* God to act in the manner in which I ordain. It strikes me what arrogant boogers we were. In contrast....it has been much nicer to recieve what is offered with thankfullness...s`funny ...but it always seems to end up being far above and beyond any of the results my petty *commands* ever accomplished.

(((oak))) I am so sorry. I shouldn`t have said most men in my post...Many Many of you guys were wonderfull loving gentlemen....My bitterness of much of what I saw ... at times over shadows the memories of all of you guys who were doing your best to just serve God and love your family. What happened to you was criminal imo.... I don`t think you guys even knew what crap we were being fed...my husband certainly didn`t.... I don`t know why some were so mean and some were not...I don`t know why some heard the teachings and caught on to the part about loving the wife like Jesus loved the church ...and some used the same teaching as a liscense to throw their weight around...to bully and demean.... I do know that when we finally reexamined our *marriage* beliefs as taught by twi...and tossed em....Mark was damn glad to have a real partner at last....we worked together for the first time.....rather than having some kiss a-- servant who mindlessly agreed with everything he says...with no valid opinion...kind of like some mindless bobble head doll.... Whether the family sinks or swims does not rest entirely on his shoulders any more...it isn`t his burden alone anymore. The pressure of having to get everything JUST right ...of being spiritually sharp 100 % of the time lest some evil befall his family due to some lack of attention to some minor detail...was an enormous burden for him to carry alone. I know that you guys had it rough....having to deal with all of the normal pressures of life, work raising kids ...plus answereing to leadership for every little thing...any little shortcoming of any member in your family was your personal failing at some vital issue. Not many twi marriages I know survived ..... I think it is because what we were taught interfered with how the partnership functions....created many unnecessary pressures on you guys and bred discontent with the women ...

Omg dove....you are so funny... Lol Pat n raf.....sounds like my friend when asked to what did he credit the success of his many years of marriage?.... well he said...the *secret* was...that on the day they were married......He n his wife had the agreement that his wife was allowed to make any and all of the *small* decisions....and that HE ..would make all of the BIG decisions regarding their life. My friend mused for a moment n said... *you know ... s`funny.... but in 50 years of marriage...there have never BEEN any big decisions*...rofl

Lol, funny dove....no REALLY...I never really hit Mark with a two by four...it was a metafore...honest...rofl Heres a *deal* for YOU oldies... stop attempting to negate what I was taught or experienced in twi...what I did or did not endure...and I`ll quit refuting you! What I am guessing is.... that because you were never married, or female...you probaly didn`t recieve the benefit of the *in depth* teachings depicting what God/twi required of a *virtuous* woman. Paint it as pretty as you please Oldies...I still know the indignities that the women and children (many men as well, if they didn`t toe the line) suffered by adherance to twi teachings...were unpleasant...unnecessary and not something God required.

Do you mean that if I had studied the bible more I would have had less problems? Cause if THATS what you mean....it would be inapropriate... No amount of prayers...scipture study..believing trying to be good enough..trying to make everything right... was enough to address our problems... Twi teaching failed because it taught that Husband was head...God only worked through him...husband must be obeyed because he was the head of the household...ie...we the wives had no recourse...we had to suffer with bad treatment.... wrong decisions...inapropriate behavior....we must submit to this...and THEN God would bless us...regardless of whether the husband was right or wrong... Husband an alcoholic jerk? be a better wife...husband making foolish decisions....abide by em anyway cause God will bless you for your commitment....yadda yadda...Our whole role in the marriage our insights...our longsuits would be dismissed at a whim...as unimportant..thus fully discarding half of what was needed for a healthy marriage and happy family. Galen...I met many many wonderfull peaple in twi as well....no critisism of them intended...Different flavors in different areas...always Ex 10th tha was absolutely the most beautifull summery of what a marriage is supposed to be that I have ever read....

*God hood* status is a joke Galen, Mark never knew what I had been taught...and never knew that I didn`t feel I had any right to speak up...matter of fact he was down right ....ed that I had not told him years earlier that I didn`t believe that I was *allowed* to speak up or contradict him....he just assumed that that it was because I was smart and always agreed with him rofl Galen...maybe it was because I was *corpes spouse* that things were different . I was under constant scrutiny to be sure to sure that I measured up..to ensure that I was *worthey* ..of membership in the corpes house hold...it was a big hairy deal.... consequences were greater for any infractions against me AND my spouse for any percieved unwomanly behavior. I knew great loving couples in twi...but generally those were the ones who were not under direct leadership scrutiny. Everything was fine as long as I was always meek ...never questioned...always placated him...I was the model wife...lol Granted you and Bonnie are the exception...I am simply relating the personal experiences and instructions of 15 years of twi in different states under different leaders.... There are ex twi women who put out a magazine in my state....every article was about...how to find your spiritual equal so that submitting isn`t a problem...how to please your man....what to do if your man is spiritually *inferior* and you still must submit....it`s box thinking at its worse...without a man to submit to...they were lost... I have found that we have a whole set of responsibilities as wives...and having the guts to stand up and confront your spouse when they are being bu tt heads...or in defense of yourself and your children is at times necessary...it is also necessary to take a stand and be adamant when they are making a mistake that will adversely affect your entire family....none of those are allowed under the *submit to spouse always* rule. Twi teaching in no way prepared me to be the wife that my husband needed....

I agree ex... seeing as *submit* is a hot button with me...my dear spouse avoids ANY reference ...lol See the thing is there are times and places where the submit is garbage... All of the submitting, placating, and prayers in the WORLD wont help your marriage when dealing with an alcoholic or abusive spouse....they need a 2 by 4 upside the head (figurativly speakin) It wasn`t untill I/we dumped all twi teachings regarding marriage that the journey towards healing could begin...its when I could fianlly develope the guts to stand up do what needed to be done..

Here we go again eh oldies?....you never saw it so it didn`t happen .... For heavens sake ..the ONLY position in twi that a woman was *qualified* for was horizontal....our ideas...intuitions and areas of expertise were ignored....shoot the only ones lower in the social pecking order were the poor children.... It`s rather amusing for you to attempt to speak with authority on the subject ....seeing as you were never married...nor I think ever a woman in twi oldies... I take it that you were not at the womens *advances* where we were taught how to properly *serve* the men....Probably You were never at the pre marriage counceling sessions where the women were told that *sex* and anything else was required when where and how the spouse wanted...even if you were furious with them...spiritually you were required to submit. Likewise apparently you were not witness to some leaderscreaming at his wife to submit...I was. Probably never had to be *counceled* that ANYTHING the husband did was ok...drunkeness, beatings...all were acceptable...we simply were inept at figuring out a way to soothe them and do our jobs properly...and there wouldn`t be a problem. You were never put through the indignity of being forced to *obey* like some recalcitrant child because the *man* was in charge...nor passed over for leadership positions because as long as *men* were available...God din`t need the women... Our sole responsibility was to serve the *man* be they spouse or otherwise so that they could *best teach the word*...PERIOD...sounds pretty second class to me....oops but there I go again getting upity....thinking above my station of *woman* ...maybe Mark hasn`t been brow beating or berating me enough lately... Not in all marriages...no...many men had more integrety than to behave in the manner that twi recommended....many men rose above what they were taught... I am saying that in OUR marriage begun in twi...even in SPITE of our best efforts ...it has taken YEARS to eliminate the taint of twi teaching that was preventing our marriage from what God intended. Smurf...I`d make *respect* at the top of my list of qualifications in a new relationship....

Tough one smurfette...check in the *open* forums ...a few months back there was a thread there about nbw (never been way) verses way concerning potential spouses, dating etc..lot of good info. I am still married to my twi spouse...it is a tough road...both of us have many years of pre conditioning, not to mention just down right wrong teachings concerning our partnership. I know so many ex way women who continue with distorted views of their role and function in a marriage...even years after leaving....it is very sad. We think it`s pretty funny now....my husband occasionally bemoans his lost *God hood* status enjoyed while we were involved...he will jokingly bellow out *submit dammit* commands...and pretends to cringe in fear and be intimidated whenever I get on a tear...once in a while he even threatens to start rebuking devil spirits lol....point is...we recognise twi behavior and are able to laugh now. Biggest thing I would reccomend...even above similar belief systems........(shoot husband and I are at comeplete oposit ends of the spectrum concerning those)...they really have very little to do with what constitutes a good relationship with us)..... is someone who will treat you with dignity and respect....rather than the 2nd class citizen status that most men in twi were taught to employ.

Hey wayward.. If you want some fun reading...Frank E Peretti writes some intersesting books. Novels about people and spiritual warfare...about how the believers empower themselves and the angels to fight back against the darkness with their prayers and unity...how the devil spirits are strengthened when they are able to distract the believers focus on God ...ie divison from back biting lack of prayer...adversity....thereby empowering themselves to overpower the angels in the scirmish... Just stories...but the interactions between the angels the devil spirits and the believers is quite thought provoking. *This present Darkness* is the first one I guess ...

Imbus I believe that you are dead on the money...lCM was a sex *freak* everything he looked at physically, scripturally and spiritually was from this point of view....it tainted every *truth* that he ever presented. No WONDER there was so little decency in him and under his regime...he COULDN`T really see the message of God ...the love...the kindness...decency...he just couldn`t see it... I think that it was the same with vp as well...his *research* and pov were all tainted by his preconcieved notions...

I guess that you are right Steve...even the best septic sytems generally are not equipped to handle that much sh-t....sigh I DO however have a summer place with an honest to god outhouse...

Ya know George ...with the price of tp being what it is today.....I imagine placing a copy in by the potty would be about the most effecacious means of utilizing those books... just think of the ultimate satisfaction with each page utilised ... knowing that at long last, you have finally found the function for which those works were ultimatly the most effective :-)

welcome welcome...great to have you here. I have found it amazing in reading refiners posts...how similar the cult experiences have been...you will fit right in with us dear

Good question PR....I remember vividly the day I realised that I was nothing more than a high pressure salesman for God. We had been to my first app corpes meeting...and had been given techniques to entrap people ...a given set of questions to manouver a person into a proverbial corner. The whole *bonus* thing of spiritual growth and awards for success...ie people in pfal......failure meant you were a loser .....I finally had a view of the rest of my life as a *hawker* of pfal and was in despair. However it never dawned on me that it was anything OTHER than God`s will for my life.

Geeze refiner....I am sorry ... it is amazing how similar the abuse is from one cult to the next.......same lies...same scriptures used to ensnare .... same scriptures to justify abusive conduct....man, I am sorry. Tell us more! How did you begin to see past the lies...what helped free your mind from the dogma....

Anything to keep this thread going after it has been declared *run it`s course* ;-)

rofl refiner...for one who never had the dubious privelege of attending a pfal class...you bout got it nailed.... As far as mikeology oak, I think hq oughtta hire him on...reinstitue the *research dept* and make him the head... those in twi are bout the only ones I believe who would have the ummm shall we charitably call it *mindset* that would allow them to swallow without ga..um er apreciate his unique pov.

Raf ... that Bob Stanly song was my all time very VERY most favorite ever ever :-) Also the one they did that started out real soft and sweet about being wows and moving to town...then explodes with loud rock type beat...lol loved it. *We shall all be changed*...what a great one...George... I liked *it`s gotta be God* so well dmiller, that I taught the kiddoes at church to sing it for some regional function, ...it was precious. *my sould doth magnify* I can hear it now...beautifull...awww man you guys...every song each of you brings up...it`s like...oh oh man I loved that one too!! lol.... Another one...*Turn your eyes upon Jesus* sung by some lady on a roa teaching tape I had...vp joined her for the last verse...loved that one too. Loved the kids music tape .... a really oldie on some tape....wow or maybe ambassodors ...a group that had sam preyn I think had a song called something like *you are God`s masterpiece* Ambassadors ..can`t think of the guy who used to sing it at roa dangit.... There was a guy in our fellowship ...Mike Novack... ...wrote and sang beautifull songs...my favorite *body of christ* maybe what it was called The one about the blind boy.. I liked *same old lie* word wolf...*heart of a champion*...awww loved it Actually loved most any of the music in twi with the exception of *beautifull ohio* ...ugh

Guess I really AM the nerd around here...lol cause I LOVED almost all way prod stuff....I always got so much more out of the music ...inspired ...(course this was in the 80s) it seems than I ever got out of the loooooong dry teachings. It seemed like any of the music the believers played were spoke volumes to me.......espescially loved Bob Stanly ...Sammy Preyn....theopholous (still treasure my worn copy to play on special occasions) lisa lockridge...Stevie Kay...pressed down....I have some corpes tape productions that I love ...I liked branded...I think the only stone cold turn off personally was *high country caravan* .... not that I didn`t like country...it was just that it was obviously some folks trying to put on a country show that weren`t country....it wasn`t their faults...I know Still have most of my way prod albums....(all of my tapes have been played till they wore out)....sigh it`s THE only thing I am willing to keep from twi........ Ted...loved your music...when you and David came through fargo .... you were such a gentleman...one of the really *good* guys, as I remember....really kind....when we took a tour of the area...It was such a suprise that you were so down to earth and friendly for a visiting *dignitary* ...lol made a huge impression on a youngster to whom had been given the charge of *hostess* one who was starkly terrified of making a mistake and bringing shame to the whole branch for eternity ... Thanks:-) Don`t let it get any of you down if your music made someones *worst* song ...cause for some of the rest of us ...they were our favorites ... and spoke volumes .... part of what was *good* about twi. Shoot I signed up for pfal at a *take a stand caravan* but I wont hold THAT against any of you musicians;-)...lol