rascal

I finally was able to purchase this book. I know I am about four years late, but.....WOW! All I can say is thank you kristen for putting into words what some of us have struggled for decades to understand and express. I admire your strength.

I am in one of those "any two believers" marriage. Twenty five years of shared goals and seven kiiddoes later, yeah we are still together. maybe any two believers CAN make iti work, but it sure is mighty lonely without genuine attraction. it seems like a real waste to spend an entire life time eith someone who barely tolerates your presence because you are traveling in the same direction :( I think it was a really REALLY bad idea.

how do I order it through this site? I buy from amazon .com.....don't know how to link it through this site

Or your toilet paper or your raised utilities or your coffee or refreshments or tvs and vcrs....ypou postage and money orders...whew

7. When one is suspected of homo/lesbian. I knew two different women booted for being suspected lesbians. Don`t let the fact that they were married mothers of multiple children, deceive you when genuine spiritual suspicion by a leader is involved 8. Being possessed. Usually it was because you had the unmitigated gaul to defend yourself when under attack from a leader. 8. Wouldn`t swear a loyalty oath.

John, the fact that we were so deceived by wierwille would I think, be a big indicator that in spite of its claims, pfal was a failure at teaching us separation of truth from error.

Are you serious?? The people who called him on his crap, who caught him in his lies, who tried to report his abuse were immediately thrown out, declared to be possessed so that nobody would listen to what they had to say. Many people tried.

When trying to leave the wow field and app corpes year, I was told by lc N T0wnsend that I had made a commitment to God, that to break it was to break a vow, that I was lying to God. Goodness look what happened to Annanias and Saphira when they lied.... Was I going to let a bunch of paracitical cells to prevent me from honoring my commitment? (I owed God and the ministry that taught us God`s word so much more than that doncha know?) A fetus was not alive until first breath.

Said at ark limb meeting for wows by John Sc0tt.....Peter sank when he began to focus on the five senses, when he stopped looking at his leader and obeying. Our leaders work for God today, if we don`t obey them, if we allow our five senses (aka common sense) to interfere with orders, to trick us, no matter how much we dislike or disagree we will sink also, we will miss out on the blessings of getting to see a miracle. Besides, even if our leader is wrong, God HAS to cover and make it ok because of the believing in our hearts.

Wow, that is insane.

Um what is disrespectful about pointing out the fact that he wasn`t a doctor,that in using the title the man was a fraud, a liar? VPW didn`t have the education or credentials of a doctor, maybe that was why he proved so unqualified to teach, to minister to, and conduct himself as a christian leader. That would explain his many shortcomings. Maybe if he had had the discipline, the stamina and endurance required to work and honestly earn that doctorate, he might also have developed the character and maturity necessary to be dealing with peoples lives and spiritual well being. Presenting himself as a doctor was a flat out lie. Presenting himself as a Christian or leader on behalf of God was an obscenity.

I have to agree with a soft answer turning away wrath. Vulgarity and swearing are simply a way of being offensive. Do it if you want but don`t even pretend that it is for a practical purpose, or some valid spiritual reason. As far as out in the world, I have to disagree with the assessment that a curse word is necessarily an effective to make ones point. One of the very first thing we are taught in martial arts is to avoid conflict. If someone is in our face trying to force confrontation, to try to diffuse their anger, to try to walk away. If we can understand this in the fighting world...lol how much MORE so than in the christian arena? I think this is just another example of where we were taught to find biblical sounding reasons to justify boorish behavior and excuse bullying.

Amazing comparison. All outside influences and input were slowly eliminated from our lives. Families and friends, employers, neighbors, in short, anyone who genuinely cared for us were soon cut out of our lives because they were natural man, apt to be working for satan. Books, newspapers, television were all eliminated as distractions. Outside activities were considered to be stealing from God`s time and resources. Anyone or thing that might have provided balance or a reasonable perspective were silenced. Your leader became the sole voice. If they liked you, or you had resources or skills they needed. life was tolerable. If they didn`t ....you were hounded as one who is spiritually unfit. Abuse became acceptable because they loved you and were trying to make you better.

Amen

Nother big threat...posession! Talk to someone who had left the ministry and you risked possession by the same devil spirits that had affected the person whom had left. I remember this in particular being warned not to talk to anyone who had been to any meeting that rd and jl hosted after they left twi. How about the threat that God couldn`t protect you if you didn`t tithe?

You bet, big hype about going wow or corpes, the spiritual blessings, unmatched spiritual growth.....you were God`s superstar! However you found out if you needed to leave for any reason...THEN you find out that you have made an unbreakable vow to God....that to not complete ....you were breaking your commitment to God = Lying to God = the consequences reaped by annanias and saphira..... Death period. Scarier than physical death were the veiled threats of spiritual death that would occur with out God`s protection and love. Darned right we were threatened.

Johniam said..... You're right, Waysider. We WERE like a sales force. So what? Why is that automatically "unchristian". What we did got the word of God to people and that's what counts. I know you doubt that, but you don't speak for everybody who ever took pfal. Many of us are still grateful for having done so. I think VP was clever for applying sales techniques to modern day Christianity. It worked; thousands of us found it helpful. Jesus certainly wasn't "faking it" on the cross. I don`t know about unchristian, I do think it is down right wrong. God certainly doesn`t need a sales force to move in peoples hearts and lives. He isn`t a product to be peddled period. So scripture was packaged and marketed in an attractive form....it is nothing ... a tinkling cymbal nothing more than pretty sound... without charity, without the love of God behind it.. I think it extremely detrimental. People were taught and believed that knowledge of the scriptures and operation of the principles there in equated with being christian and walking in the spirit. The arrogance of this misconception can prevent one from ever actually enjoying a genuine spirit filled walk in this life. It`s all works.

Thank you, thank you very much.

Makes an awful lot of sense. Now after the carnage...I read where there are now sheep (wolves?) that claim those whom were chased, bitten, or witnessed the slaughter by ravening wolves, are simply mistaken about the damage we experienced.... Wiley once exposed wolves now recovering themselves with fleece...hidden...regathering the scattered flock....leading them away, out of site from the shepherd where they again can wreak havoc. Hate it

VPW was a very evil man...his doctrine ... his minstry..the people he trained led people away from God in the name of God...and that people are continuing to build lives and ministries on this deception is frustrating and very sad.

Exactly...destroyed the souls... Seems to me that a righteous God wouldn`t lead some to a particular place and person proclaiming it a refuge and safe haven...and others to the same place for life altering pain... maybe even complete destruction.... This argument that *Hey, I personally benefited from twi ...therefor what happened to you is really inconsequential* has always chapped my bu tt. It` like saying ... obviously God loved and blessed me, but apparently just didn`t give a crap about you...reminds me of a seriously disfunctional family with a really abusive parent. I think that to label vpw as a Godly man is to continue to hide what and what he really was.

The idea of God covering for vpw or that some how what happened was ok because of who vp was or what he taught deeply troubles me. In essence john is saying that God just didn`t give a crap about those who were hurt ... If it was from God....wouldn`t it have been a safe haven, a refuge for everyone? Come on....Where was their safe haven? Where was their refuge? Where was the deliverance for these guys? Why would some have found a safe haven...some find they were disposable?? I think that this is rediculous.

Loved that.

Dismissing moral superiority, I think is a very convenient way to explain a lack of and to dismiss the necessity of living as a person of character and integrity. Why bother or try if it is just a a myth?? Seems like a good bit of the doctrine in twi was designed to do this...justify and excuse any damned behavior one wishes to embrace regardless of the consequences or destruction. Just plain creepy I guess it deeply offends me to be considered on the same moral level as a damned alcoholic thieving serial rapist who claimed it as his due in the name of God.... Just sick.

That teaching was foundational in supporting abusive behavior and our acceptance for responsibility. I had forgotten that the source went so far back. I remember being taught and believing that if my husband ever hit me...it was my fault for giving him reason :( I remember being taught that being screamed at by leadership was my fault for not being sharp enough....Good grief...I cannot believe that I believed this.