rascal

Your living in denial will never change the facts oldies, VP`s amoral ungodly teaching just made the just made the manipulation easier to accept the decision that we were being forced to make. It`s all as simple as abc boys n girls! A) a vow made to be God must be kept or spiritual death a probability... B) obediance to leadership necessary first foremost and always... C) fetus is simply a bunch of paracitical cells preventing you from your duty... D) trust us we have your spiritual wellbeing first and formost.... A+B+C+D = kill your child or die spiritually Hey OUR oh so superior understanding of God`s word made us FREE to destroy our unborn babies when it interfered with our commitmnent to GOD! What freedome WE have compared to those EEEEEVIL trinitarians!!!! Thankyou VP, I might have made some SERIOUS mistakes that I would regret later in life with all of those pesky children!

Amen Fence...your child, my child...way too many of our friends children...thousands of our children never to be known and treasured ...the lost granchildren to never be spoiled ...all of the future generations and their enrichment to our lives, forever lost...yep, I`d have to say that is worthey of a little anger. But hey, where IS our gratitude??? Praise GAWD almighty ..if it HADN`T been for old vpw....we mighta ended up as one oh dem dere REALLY screwed up trinitarians...shiver Thanks again vp....blees yer heart!

Why the wrath? Why the friggin ANGER???? He HURT my brothers and sisters in Christ !!!! It oughtta .... you off too....historically, God has taken a dim view of those who caused harm in his name... However, I must say that it is your *unrelenting* defense of the ones responsible for the horrendous abuses and injustices wrought in Gods name that is probably what MY *unrelenting* wrath is directed at more so than anything else....lol. What vpw did OUGHT to deeply offend and infuriate ANY sane human being ...how much MORE so any true christian? I must say that I don`t believe my personal disgust with what that viscious amoral creep perpetrated in God`s name really has ANYTHING to do with my humbleness to God`s direction. It is not MY opinion that condemns vpw and defines his true nature...I have simply pointed out in galations what GOD ALMIGHTY says is the true spiritual nature of one who committed the acts vpw did. Lol...sure bites dont` it?....read it...read what it says of liars, adulterers..ones who are filled with lascivious...wrath...strife...drunkness...read it and tell ME what God says..... You don`t like it? wanna argue? think it`s an unfair assesment? After you have read the lists in galations of the actions of a man of the flesh verses man of the spirit and then whine to God... I get very tired of hearing you making excuses for that wolf in sheep clothing....that devourer of God`s people... that destroyer of lives in order to make the stench of his legacy bearable, attempting to pass him off as a man of the spirit.....We were warned in the scriptures concerning those such as he....had we known of his actions back then....we might have recognised him for the theif that he was....... *I* haven`t judge him harshly....the very scriptures that he himself lauded as the absolute end all be all final authority on everything pertaining to life and Godliness... ...convict him soundly with no help from me. Once again though, you and Mike want to point the finger, attempting to make the innocent look bad, accusing yet again....this time of pride....mike wants to point the finger at ex and any others who speak up about abuse endured and claim that there is something wrong or bad about them for warning others of the EVIL that vpw and his bunch heartily embraced ..that these men were not what they led us to believe.. the only thing left in your arsenal now that the the evil has been exposed for all to see...is to try to discredit those who speak the truth in order to draw attention away from the sins of these evil men....too late...the cats outta the bag friend....the evil will never again be hidden.

As long as you folks are including all of the works that vp felt had merrit, damn well better add out takes from the porn doggy flick...by all means, that must be preserved for all spiritual posterity. A few questions, however... Do verbal but unrecorded teachings count? Then we could include abortion is ok ....women are required to service the mog ... physical violence is apropriate to keep ones spouse and children lined up with God`s word....children are an acceptable sacrafice if it means keeping yourself alive to spread God`s word...and last , but most important of all....ANYTHING is lawfull as long as you can spiritually *handle* it..... Hmmm maybe we should have different sections ...the *written* word ...the transcripts from the audio recorded word...ummm will we be including the oral word, as long as we can get three to agree that he said it? oh ... and Will there be any references at all made to the *tattered remnants* that we all (including vp) used heretofor? Lessee that makes four books, unless mike wants to add a book with his interpretations of the true meanings of vpw`s works. Whew .... It`s gonna be one hell of a religion that is being started...that would make four books to Mikes new and improved word of God........ P.s. Mike, ex`s and others accounts are only exagerated in your own mind and unacceptable to talk about because you cannot reconcile the evil this man visited upon our brothers and sisters and the man you want to believe was a mog.....she and others have done an enormous amount of good in allowing us a glimpse of the darkness that vpw harbored. Anyone who wants to hide vp`s true spiritual nature by shutting up those who experienced his evil are amoral creeps as well.

I dunno where you see *pride* in me or or through my posts......but you are dead wrong ...why does this not suprise me? As far as me being immune from evil...I have no idea what you are talking about.....immune from being evil? immune from attacks of evil? I don`t embrace and indulge in evil if THATS what you mean...It is real easy not to hurt people, steal from them, seduce them in God`s name when you are a genuine christian....the counterfet are the ones making excuses for not living up to the standard that God describes in the bible. I would describe myself as just plain humble, simply because the only thing that I now REALLY know ...is that I DON`T know I understand that as ex wafers we may have a lot bigger sin and false doctrinal issues than most of the churches and trinitarians that we are piously pointing our fingers of judgement at. Many times, I think that it is our own arrogance that blinds us.

I sometimes wonder if the ONLY reason that we have a problem with folks who believe in the trinity is because we were TOLD that we had a problem with them ...told by a drunken, lecherous, lying, plagerising, adulterous son of a beech. Seems to me that God may be more concerned with how we treat each other (ie love your neighbor) rather than being disgusted and ugly with each other over doctrinal differences. My daughter was invited to a baptist church today....of course, my husband of course had snotty things to say about their beliefs...n general lack of spirituality....I mentioned that the folks I was going with were very strong chrsitians....and that God could work in that group with these spirit filled christians regardless of the specifics of trinity or non....every BIT as well as he did with us and our doctrinal errors.... When you look at what lies WE believed....and yet God was able to reach and teach us.....frankly, I think that our belief had as many or more heinous errors than just about any church I have visited since leaving. I mean just LOOK at what he managed to accomplish for us in SPITE of our leaders being such amoral creeps! Matter of fact, the ministers doctorate was real, and I doubt that all of the women belonging to him was one of the perks in HIS contract...Drunkeness is not a privelege....How much more could God work with a guy that didn`t have his senses befuddled in the manner of OUR leaders...be they trinitarian, librarian, liberitarian... I think that this is yet another area of residual arrogance we carry over from twi and our being involved with very evil men.

Word wolf...ask oakspear, he awarded me a doctorate at the last weinie roast. I have the torn out lined spiral notebook paper it was scribbled on to prove it! Lol we could ALL start addressing each other as *Doctor* since it is obvious the title no longer has any meaning. Dr. Rascal

We *require* our man of God to simply be a *man of the spirit* as he is described in galations. Galations condemns wierwilles actions....tells us that he was not a man of the spirit...he flat out misrepresented himself. I have no respect for someone who stole so much from young folks those whom he promised to help to know God just a little bit better. Thing is, in his betrayal, he has made many of us doubtfull and mistrusting of God as well. Great legacy for a minister. lol...bible falling apart....

Lol wth, and just WHAT does that say about those foolish enough to waste their time not only reading about what we write but writing about what a waste of time our writing is ...lol As for stopping the debate about vpw...lol I assume THAT will happen when you folks stop misrepresenting who and what wierwille really was...untill then...count on us continuing to refute your ideology with our experiences endured.

ooops wrong thread...sigh.........was intended to go with the pet store analogy on the witnessing thread...

I agree catcup ...I remember early on ...I had great success witnessing to others what God did for me...but eventually, we were pressured into being hawkers of pfal...canned sales pitches...motivational techniques....I hated it...the only folks takin pfal were the one who couldn`t think fast enough on their feet to get away from you...or friends and family members who just didn`t want to hurt your feelings. Georgio, I remember vividly the bleakness I felt after my first app corpes meeting ...did we learn about serving God better? Did we learn how to become spiritually sharp? Did we learn how to help people? Oh hell no ...we had traveled hours to the limb ....only to be split up and dropped around the city for some door to door....OHBOY!!....I was so depressed on the way home contemplating how I would be nothing more than a high pressure salesman for God for the rest of my life ( I felt just like I did in high school when I had to sell oranges door to door I hated it and was ashamed) ....all success .... all future spirituality would be based on whether or not I could scrounge up a student for the next class...and the class after that and the class after that....it was my first glimpse of the real truth that lay behind twi... I had the same experience working at a pet store....for 6 months...I sold an amazing number of animals and products...when I was just coming to work because I loved animals and enjoyed sharing that love...but then came new owners with the canned sales pitches ... the numbers each month showing who was top salesmen...the pats on the back...the recognition was focused on the ones who had high sales numbers while scowles and threats were reserved for those who`s numbers didn`t measure up.... Just like in twi we were given a couple of pages to memorise ...a schpeal that manuvered anyone who walked into the store into a corner and they usually ended up with a pet whether they wanted or needed one or not..... It was a good schpeal too......how else could we sell substandard puppy mill puppies for 600 bucks when you could get one out of the paper or from a reputable breeder for 100? And of course there was the nearly 300 dollars in supplies that you just HAD to have for said pup.... Amazing the similarities as I look back...here we in our naievity ... convinced people that our product was so superior to anything out there so that they invested way more money and time ...we had to make em BELIEVE that our product was better and pressure em into a corner lest they take a brief look around and realise that there was better product without nearly the cost or heartbreak..... I went from absolute top sales in the region when I was blythly ignorant to the reality of why I was there (ie to make money for the store) to the bottom...I hated it ....I hated whoring for the pet store and I hated whoring for twi..... When we were all out there witnessing God, studying bible in our fellowships.......it was good...when we witnessed pfal and geared fellowship to running classes and rehashing pfal materials....it was horrible, stale, contrived... Mike, ...people I sold those cute little puppies to ..... would come back after a visit to the vet with reports of genetic health issues...sickness....etc....n yep I was good enough ... I could convince them that that substandard puppy that they had mortgaged their soul for was STILL the best bang for their buck...and BECAUSE they were already emotionally attatched to the puppy....they bought the schpeal no matter WHAT the mountiing evidence was to the contrary....We would always say...oh just give us the dog and we will gladly refund your money........and then let slip what the fate was for said substandard puppy....nobody ever took us up on it..... You been scammed buddy...you have bought the schpeal...and are clinging to it in desperation ....knowing that if you examin it just a little more closely...you will find out you have been screwed... You keep that substandard sickly pup and continue to pour thousands of dollars into it cosseting it ..fiercly believing that the poor malformed, substandard, atrocity to the breed standard is a champion...go ahead, but the rest of us can see what that pup that you so highly esteem is REALLY worth....in SPITE of your protestations.

You DID down play it ...liar! You must dismiss the significance of the abuse in order to ignore your concience and the evidence presented that vpw was not a man of the spirit. You didn`t answere my question mike, what if it was your teen aged body that wierwille demanded? Yeah I thought so, it`s not to bad as long as someone ELSE had to pay the price.

My husband grew up catholic in the 50s n 60s as well mike.... there is no way in hell he would EVER consider the abuse in twi as preferable for our four daughters over the childhood that he enjoyed growing up in a catholic church, school, and family....as a matter of fact, it was better than a lot of upbringings. If it had been your teen aged body that wierwille was after mike, would you be so cavaliere about what happened? Think about it...get a really vivid picture in your mind of that sweating grunting old pervert using you ... you hating it ...hating yourself...but submitting because it was what the man of God required...Do you REALLY think that the repugnance you feel at the very thought of sexual contact with him is any less than the revulsion suffered by the teens that were in reality required to submit to that nasty old man? Would the evil be any more defined in your mind? Would it be worse? Why? No big sins or little sins right?

As far as your justifications of wierwille by claiming that we harbor great evil and will give in if given the oportunity is yet another deception...MOST of us resist the evil...that is what you do when you are a genuine spirit filled christian. your walk with God...your desire to grow with and be pleasing to him...your responsibility to your fellow man, mean way more than the gratifying of ones own selfish desires. It`s the difference between the genuine and the counterfit.

*a few unwanted advances* is an unbelievable description of the seduction and rape that was perpetrated upon those who trusted vpw as a minister. Any who are not outraged by this betrayal, are in denial about the depth of depravity of the evil perpetrated.

Mike your belief that wierwilles molestation of teenaged girls was less devistating than any religion.... What he did was heinous....his destruction appalling.....but yet in your opinion it`s *still better than religion*? That is sick....and showes a total lack of understanding of the depths of wierwilles depravity ....and a complete lack of comprehension of the enormity of the destruction wrought by his betrayal. What a shame that you didn`t have a pretty young trusting daughter in twi...you could have presented her up as an offering....as an appeasment to the God`s apetite....probably convinced her that it was an honor to serve the man of God so that he could be able to more effectively teach the rest of us...such a small price to pay....long as you got the *truth* taught in return. I hope to God that you never do have a daughter....

That he willingly devistated our brothers and sisters in christ in order to sate his selfish lusts...causes me to question EVERYTHING that he taught .... A man of God ... a *man of the spirit* (a qualification I would expect for someone to recieve the revelation from God to be regarded as an apostle) the bible clearly declares in galations ... does not behave as such...VPW ... his lifelong selfish behavior..the enormity of his sins ... those ARE however listed as attributes of a *man of the flesh* ....not someone whom is generally deemed to be trustworthey. Folks, he ISN`T who or what he led us to believe....if he was, he absolutely COULDN`T have done what he did... his attributes are singularly attributed to a man of the flesh ...also a *wolf in sheeps clothing*...do you know WHY he was able to mingle with the sheep? It was because his disguise HAD to be so realistic and convincing...his illusion as a pastor and teacher convincing ...otherwise he couldn`t have gotten close enough to the sheep to devour them..... It is a serious mistake to trust his version of *truth* ...simply because he presented as such.... Galations has much to say about *men of the flesh* and how they are to be regarded....harbringer of truth like it hasn`t been known since the first century isn`t one of the things that is generally one of the accomplishments to be expected of a man of the flesh.....it is a mistake to trust a man with low moral fiber and character...no matter how convinced they are that they have the truth. Rather than revere the predator that slunk in and mercilesly slaughtered and devoured God`s people, devistated his flock...I believe he needs to be viewed with the utmost contempt and anything associated with him to be carefully regarded with the utmost wariness...

4 adults ...10 kids and teens and three dogs attended the first weinie roast... I believe 13 adults 13 kids and teens and two dogs plus some local friends..attended the second roast....hope I didn`t leave anybody out of my figuring...lol

I think that it is primarily because after leaving twi....they have not really LOOKED for any options other than being with folks that think and speak and believe as we once did. They are unwilling to leave that which they have become comfortable with, and so gather together telling each other that this is the *best* that is available after all...and are patting each other on the back...convincing themselves that they are on a mission for God. The problem is, if you don`t leave your *comfort zone*... you don`t grow, you don`t ever see what is out here that really IS better, you have to keep turning back to that which makes you the most comfortable. One might very well be content to live as such.....

I`d have a whole lot more respect for an honest garbage man then a lying Doctor. At issue is, that among other things he was a liar...fundimentally dishonest.....a very large character flaw in someone who wants to be Gods representative....and consequently negates his trustworthiness on all levels.

Too bad his *love for God`s word* overshadowed his responsibility to *love* his neighbors....Jesus mighta mentioned something about this being of major importance...seems to me, second only to Love God with all your heart soul mind and strength. I don`t believe that you can treat people the way he did and have much love or respect for them...

I agree...and HAD he been honest about his credentials whatever they were...it would be a non issue.... The issue is he LIED! That makes him an untrustworthey individual, period....everything he ever said or claimed becomes suspect. He had no business proclaming himself a minister for God and proclaimer of the truth if he didn`t intend on behaving in a moral and ethical manner.

I wrote about this in the open forum... One expects that a person that bears the title of *doctor* to have put in the time and effort money hard work and discipline required to aquire the skills and inspire the respect that comes with that title. It`s like martial arts....I noticed this month in a catalog that you can ORDER a black belt....certificates as well ...you can put any name you please on them.....so why bother spending 5 to ten years of my life going to a dojo, working myself to exhaustion 2 1/2 to 5 hours twice weekly? Why should I continue paying my hard earned money every month....doing hot boring repetative exercises...when I could learn all the same moves watching a chuck norris or Jackie chan movie? Of what possible benefit is it to endure the rigors of testing roughly twice yearly....proving that I have aquired the speed skill stamina and mastery of techniques to procede to the next level? Why do all of this when my black belt and certificate is identical to the one ordered from the martial arts catalog? We both have the same rank and title...question is....who do you want in charge of your personal safety in a fight? Who would you want as an instructor in your dojo? Why? Could it be the one who EARNS the rank/title is better qualified? When one is garnering respect for a title not earned....what does it say about that person?

You gotta be kidding what the hey.....have you READ any of the accounts of the women that were coerced into participation in the *inner circle* ??? The pressure the twisting of scripture regarding their responsibility...the consequences for non compliance???? There is SO much that is wrong with this on so many levels .... and to view it with the same eye of someone *sleeping their way to the top*....is disturbing. Sure....some women did it for the reasons mentioned.... but why paint all of the hundreds of women that were coerced/drugged/influenced into participation.....by the clergy they trusted with their lives? What the hey, you have a mighty scewered perception of women. Even the women who want/need the validation of sleeping with the mog for the reasons mentioned....should have been gently but firmly refused. It is a character issue plain and simple. Men of God at all times, ought to behave with honor and integrety and adhere to the highest moral standards... able to and respond with integrety and character at ALL times.....or they simply are not Men of God period....just self centered people masquerading as and pretending to be ministers.

..when one has a family member or aquaintance that participated in the inner circle not only as an *enlightened* one themselves....but a *recruiter* as well...I understand how it would be easy to tend to want to paint ALL women with the same brush... However....even the ones who bought into the *it`s an honor to serve the mog* twisting...were victims. It isn`t a level playing field.... your minister/counceler/doctor enjoys a position of trust and respect...one lowers personal barriers and is vulnerable. Shoot even at the plant I work at supervisors/people in authority are never allowed to date others in the plant for that simple reason.....How much more so ...tha minister you trust with your spiritual health and well being.