rascal

I would think that in order for the apology to be genuine ...the apologiser would have to understand the depths of the awfull pain and sorrow caused by their actions.... I`d think if that were to ever happen...if one were to fully understand the extent of the pain and damage wrought....the sorrow and regret would be overwhelming....they would have to kill themselves...as few humans could live with that much guilt.

Not when THE teacher told folks in the corpes that in the event of a usa take over ..... that it was ok to allow our kids to be sacrificed or destroyed....just protect and save yourself at all cost because *you carry the word* you can always produce more children after the danger has passed. Destroying an unborn child was honorable because a pregnancy was considered an interferance with your duty to God. So no oen, in answere to your retorical question....no I do not think that leadership gave a sh-t about children.

It just occured to me after all of these years of choking it down...I don`t even LIKE fish:-)

Bout the ONLY reason I would ever go back would be to have some fun with those sanctimonious b-sturds. It would be a lot of fun to watch the sparks fly when I told em exactly in graphic detail what to do with emselves the first time a leader started throwing his weight around. Besides that what appeal could there be??? All of the really cool, fun, spiritual, classy, talented people that were ever in the group are out here on the otherside.((((((((((group hug)))))))))))) ;-)

Excellent oldies.... you managed to comment on the topic at hand! There is ignorance on both sides of the isle for sure....can`t help that. What we CAN do is to make sure that we are not continuing to hobble ourselves spiritually with our prejudices instilled in us during our twi years.

I have never lied about ANYTHING that I have posted here......there is no need, as it was plenty horrible without embellishment. Every single thing that I have posted oconcerning the abuses suffered have all been verified by other posters or backed up with similar accounts. I defy you to point out a single instance of my being dishonest. Again I say ... MY spirituality or lack there of has no bearing whatsoever on the blackness of vpw`s sins. Galations and it`s standard for the man of the spirit stand regardless of my spirituality and lack there off...lol Seriously, I have no respect for the opinion of one who`s only problem with twi is that it hit him in the pocket book. To hell with our brothers and sisters who suffered and died....to hell with the families destroyed....the children forever lost through our participation in twi....it simply sucked because oldies didn`t like to tithe. Your attacks on the innocent and to blacken their names and veracity to hide the guilt of your disgraced minister and the injustices endured directly at his hands is reprehensible. Please cease your personal attacks and limit your comments to the information being dicsussed on the thread topic. Now...back to why we think trinitarian believing christians are so bad....Do you have an opinion one way or another oldies or are you just here to obscure my point of view by burying it under personal assaults on my moral character, spirituality, and veracity?

Thanks Steve, I am not concerned with oldies opinion of me....as IF my spiritual nature one way or another has any bearings on the blackness of wierwilles crimes.... The thing that bugs me is when sometimes a very good message gets lost because of the personal attacks.... So back to topic....I wonder if.... in being taught to loath churches and other christians we were subtely led away from possibly seeing true men and women of the spirit in action....possibly we might end up being able to recognise the counterfit. I mean after all if the only ministers you are learning from...are men of the flesh masquerading (maybe even unbeknownst to themselves) as men of God....these shortcomings will seem normal and acceptable. It doesn`t dawn on us to be outraged. The question we have to ask ourselves is are we still indulging in our former arrogance in avoiding other christians deeming them unworthey of our respect and attention by pasting labels like trinitarian...methodist mormon...baptist....thus safely in our minds negating any value to their insight or pov.

For you to accuse me of these things is ludicrous oldies....you mislabel my outrage over the mistreatment of our dear brothers and sisters..my anger over the spiritual deceptions perpetrated on vulnerable people...anger over what was done in Gods name....as wrath ....you have mislabeled my absolute disgust with a wolf and viscious predator that used his status as a minister to disarm and and destroy so many who looked to him to teach him of God....as hate...my total lack of respect for this criminal and what he stole in God`s name as wrong. You label my rebuttles of your attempts to portray wierwille as something he wasn`t as unrelenting attacks... Mislabeling me, my motives and my attributes will not make the stench of wierwilles legacy any more bearable....nor will attacking me, pointing your finger at my percieved shortcomings will not...cannot change wierwilles sin nature as a man of the flesh....regardless of my spirituality one way or another... I am not suprised that you cannot discern my spiritual nature since you are unable to recognise the nature of the man of the flesh who`s actions and nature you would white wash in order to make him appear as something he was not. I suggest that there is a reaason for your lack of clear perception and discernment abilities...

Maybe our repugnance at the thought of interaction with others who`s beliefs don`t line up with our *truth* is responsible for our not seeing many genuine spiritual men. Consider maybe that is why you aren`t seeing real men of the spirit....you are still hanging around folks that are justifying the actions and indulgances of men of the flesh...and justifying their short comings ...mislabeling them as spiritual guys who make mistakes...maybe you do not want to have to face the fact your own lack of attributes of a man of the spirit convicts you....maybe you don`t want to have to recognise the need for change. Twi was great in helping us hide our true spiritual natures and justify the darkness we entertained. It does you nor them any good because one may never enjoy the genuine spirit filled presence of God if you are making excuses for why the behaviors of a man of the flesh are acceptable.

oldies...then at one time or another folks are behaving as men of the flesh.....most don`t raise it to an art form like vp and his hand picked leaders did. frankly I have had no problem with the majority of the attributes of a man of the flesh...they have no apeal to me....it`s not a temptation.....adultry is not a problem...lasiviousness......no way...lying...nope.... ...drunkeness...nope .....idolotry...not an issue.....hatrid...unhuh...wrath...strife...heresies..fornication.....nope. For a true man of the spirit...it is an inside job....you can`t fake it ...and these things won`t hold appeal. You do a diservice to practicing men of the spirit everywhere to indicate that such behavior is inevidable....it isn`t when trhe spirit is real... You will find yourself manifesting the attributes of a man of the spirit without even thinking about it as well...it is what you are...not something you try to be....that is the difference between the genuine and the counterfet.. God has shown us.....feel free to find reasons not to accept it. and explain why we don`t have to do what it says.....twi taught us well. away.... I think our knowledge of the scripture caused us to be arrogant and assumed that this mastery of knowledge in and of itself would make us spiritual and Godly.......nope. As far as pfal not being bad...I`d say that the knowledge aquired was instrumental in the building of our arrogance in our own works assuming that they would ensure our spirituality....I`d say it was detrimental.

I was discussing my experiences with christians outside of twi oldies. Of course what has happened with the priests is as spiritually dark andevery bit as horrible as what has been endured in twi....and your point is? it changes the evil endulged how? Only difference betweeen them n us is that in twi ... the rampant sexual abuse in some states happened to BOTH boys and girls. It is not the norm however, nor does it negate my point. Our feelings of spiritual superiority because of our biblical knowledge meant zero when it came to living in spiritual darkness. I am saying that doctrinal beliefs will not decide who is spiritual...who is working on God`s behalf. Our believing in no trinity ... nor our oh so superior spiritual maturity as workmen of the word did not prevent great evil from being practiced in twi.... In MY experience those christiaans that I have met trinity or non...those who do not have our oh so superior knowledge of the word like it hasn`t been known since the first century...and biblical research capabilities have had no problem not endulging in the evil behavior and imoral practices that we did. We have no business feeling smug and superior...believing that we are any better or more enlightened than others who believe different doctrine...just look at where our arrogance took us. We are still blind and arrogant if we believe that our spirituality or doctrinal recipe makes us feel like we can look down our noses at ANY other belief system. You name the worse that you can find practiced in other religions... christian and non...and I don`t think you will find anything less heinous practiced in twi. We got no business thinking we are too good to fellowship with trinitarian believing bretheren. We are either men of the flesh or men of the spirit....in order to decide which just read galations and tally the attributes to decide....I`d say that being a pfal grad with all its great knowledge didn`t prevent us from falling into the pitfalls and becoming men of the flesh....so a fat lot of good it did.

Thanks blue sunday....it was a very enjoyable and healing time for me...one of those special blessings. Lifted, I have had absolutely no trouble discussing this issue not only in our karate study group....but in either the methodist church we attended...the baptist church that my children participated in awanas in...the non denominational church I was with for a while....or our homeschool bible study groups through the years.... When people are walking with the love of God...when we treat each other with the respect due a neighbor......there just isn`t ever a big enough issue to treat each other ugly over.... We may not agree...but we all realise that we are on our own growth track and time table with God...each path traveled is different...we are all at a different place in our journey... we know that we will all arrive eventually at our destination...we might as well enjoy our trip...and be an asset to each other whether we agree or not.... I think it is the thing that mature christians do. I have yet to see a single instance since leaving twi of seeing a scripturally ignorant christian ... trinitarian or not...in one of these Oh to be despised churches cause the wholesale carnage and damage our twi people did... in SPITE of supposing to be more spiritual because of our great biblical knowledge.... I don`t figure we have ANY business thinking that we are more spiritually fit...or have an inside track to God.

You know, I did just that...gave a whole set of wierwille books to a very intellegent neighbor....one time missionary one time minister one time congressional person....very very smart well read guy. He was very nice .... but gently informed me that there MIGHT be some grounds for concern over thereliability of the work and the conclusions drawn. As the years have gone by and I have grown to respect his wisdom more, he has been able to get more and more specific without fear of offending me. Basically, the only reason we THOUGHT it was so great....is because we were told over and over again that it WAS the end all be all of biblical research.....face it, as teenagers, we had very little to base our comparisons with.

hmmmm no dictators....only those who covered for and condoned the evil....who`s worse?

Oh oh ...I wanna be like John TOO! Ummm what was this thread about again? Oh yeah WIERWILLES actions vs his words....LOL Steve ... we have both been sucked off course ....

mike says that pfal and vps writings replaced the tattered remnants of scripture that were all that was available before 194? That is not only idolotry, but blasphemy as well.

awww darn Steve, you`d think that I`d learn that by now..sorry. I thought it aplicable...if he can get us to thinking adulterous behavior is no big deal...then he can reinstate vp to his man of the spirit status.

Oh lessee well ..ASIDE from the obvious fact that GALATIONS lists it as an action that only a man of the flesh endulges in....(geeze I feel like I am having to lecture my teenager) .... extra marital sex puts yourself at risk for std`s, some of them incurable...others will result in death.... Unfortunatly, as is commonly the case...the spouse who was not out putting themselves at risk....is assuming the SAME risks (unbeknownst to themselves) as the mate that indulges themselves with prolific sexual partners... and stands a darn good chance of infection with a life threatening disease before the cheating spouse is discovered. My friends cheating spouse infected her with a std...and though she has since divorced him for his betrayal... she will have to suffer the effects and indignity of the symptoms ...reminding her of his faithleness for the rest of her life.... So I`d say that if galations isn`t a good enough reason for you.....that the risk of disease and death for you .... your partner, possibly resulting in the orphaning any children you two may already have together would make a pretty good argument for monogomous relationships.

I dunno Dove, All are welcome, truly...but as with the other old woman...alas my shoe is filled with SO many children....a seriously scarey proposition for ANYONE....lol No doubt one look at the dishes in my sink...the dust on my fridge and the fingerprints on my windows of my home would be proof of contamination *spiritually* enough so that when one saw the ungodly hights to which my laundry pile had reached.....that any wafer in their right (or would it be wrong) mind would be furiously rebuking the evil in the name of Jesus and fleeing in abject terror ...lol Ask herbal and bowtwi...there is no TELLING what farm chores you will have to help with upon arriving for a visit.....bow had to brave insects on *tick mountain* to do fencing, and herbal mike had to help bury a dead colt.. ...help hold sick horses while the vet was here and take charge of dinner at any given point...lol If anyone thinks that they are up for the challenge lol...wafers or ex....bring it on down :-) Suffice it to say, that you might be called upon to work during a visit.

Our karate class held bible study once a week...now mind you, we have people from every denomination and belief system imaginable....It was amazing how we were able to learn from each other....simply because we had already developed a respect for one anothers strengths and abilities. It was amazing how we were able to apreciate each others unique perspectives....9 times out of ten....our perspectives dovetailed enriching each others understanding...and it never failed that we came away with a greater apreciation for the scriptures studied. Never once did it degenerate into a battle over doctrines....it didn`t need to, there are far to many meaningfull things to study and enrich our lives with. We are not nearly so different as we were led to believe.

Hey no denying that there are those on either side of the argument that are intolerant. So that means we should continue to be?? As far as voicing my beliefs one way or another, there has not been a single denomination that I have visited or participated in since leaving that held my beliefs, be they trinity, dead alive, now four crucified....whatever...that have never held that against me..nor prevented me from discussing contrary doctrine nor were they afraid to consider my pov....suprisingly, many agreed...sometimes I learned from them and changed my opinion....it`s all good...it`s growth. As a matter of fact .... they demonstrated great tolerance and love....My lack of same beliefs has never been a deterant to my being loved respected and allowed to participate in various programs even to the point of teaching and directing. When we bicker over doctrinal differences....it reminds me of my children....they will fight to the death over some silly thing...each convinced of their rightness...hating each other over dumb stuff ...like Dad likes strawberries better than apples ....frankly it doesn`t matter who is right...it is annoying....it really DOESN`T matter...Daddy prefers what Daddy prefers....all of their arguing won`t change it....I would be much happier if they would stop wasting their time making each other (and me lol) miserable and just play nice....which eventually as they grow older they do. As an example ... We have a local methodist church that allowed the mormons to use their church in the afternoons for a couple of years for their services while the mormons built their own.....despite enormous doctrinal differences...the methodist recognised the mormons as our bretheren and neighbors and went the extra mile to demonstrate love... THAT imo was an outstanding demonstration of graciousness and spiritual maturity.

Lol water bufflo I think that making the trinity a big issue can be yet one more barrier that seperates us fro our bretheren....I think that when we have these walls of mistrust and judgement between us, we are unable to enjoy the benefets of interaction with an awfully large segment of the body of Christ. God works with us, it would appear, no matter what size the box we build (theology) and place him in. If we aren`t fighting and judging over doctrinal issues...minor things that lead to a lack of respect and mistrust... we are free to enjoy and benefit from each others long suits.

Yes Lifted, I agree..... Whether he is or isn`t does not change my responsibilities to God and my neighbor in the slightest...so to me, it is not a big deal whether folks believe one way or another.... You guys put it better than me...I too think that God is able to work with spirit filled folks ....I think that sometimes our *knowledge* puffs us up, to where we cannot hear the direction of God.

Agreed...great post STeve and exousia.

So ...lessee, what WERE we talkin out before this thread degenerated into rascals point of view has no merit because she doesn`t revere vp. Oh yeah...I think that what chwester said about God being more concerned about Loving God and how we treat our neighbor than how much doctrine we know has great merit.