rascal

Geeezus mj...and just who in the HELL took impressionable naieve teenagers many of us from broken homes and no guidance...lured them away from any mentors or family and TAUGHT them to be this way? We trusted these people to teach us of God...we trusted them with our lives and were betrayed vilely....paint it over as pretty as you please....try to mitigate their culpability by placing the blame on the people young enough...naieve enough to beleive that the people who taught us scripture had our best interest in mind....that their hearts were as pure and trusting as our own.... They betrayed us they betrayed God and you want to try to place the blame on those who were hurt for being decieved by pros.....mj, I think that you learned well from the predators...thats how they shut their victims up....make them feel ashamed and that it was somehow their fault..

nope that isn`t what I said...I said that galations said that they were fruit of a man of the flesh....vpw was what he was...a man of the flesh according to galations and as such (according to galations) would not have an iheritance in the kingdom of God. Your premise is that he was a good man that made mistakes.... my premise is that galations says that he actions indicate that he was a man of the flesh...and that his behavior was fruit of who and what he was....not simply momentary lapses in judgement.

Galations 5:19 - 21 says that the things that vp did were *works of the flesh* and that they which do these things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God....no wiggle room period. Galations doesn`t view these behaviors vpw indulged in regularly as momentary lapses of a good man who made mistakes....

Absolutely...yes, I said that and stand by it....but look at what you said that I said. I didn`t say that it was their works that stopped them from going to heaven.... Their works and fruit and their works define who and what they are.

I didn`t say that....I said that their fruit labels them as men of the flesh....their actions convict them as wolves in sheeps clothing....leading me to believe them working for darkness. THATS what I said.

proberg....whether the intention was there from the beginning or not.......undeniable folks were stolen from...folks were killed and folks were destroyed...I do not think that God was the author of these things ... SO intentions mean precisely squat...just look at the results of participation with twi.

And I believe that their actions show vpw and the bot were wolves in sheeps clothing seeking whom they may devour....their actions are those of a man of the flesh....I think that they worked for satan....and do not accept that they were necesarily born again.

Now...if we can get back on topic.... in SPITE of oldies experienced....as attested to by many on this thread, there was rampant child abuse in twi.......I also know that I saw a good deal of neglect when folks would leave their infants and children unattended in a house while the parents went to twig....trusting that God would look after them in the parents absense....I also saw instances of very sick children not being taken to the doctor because the parents were concerned that it would mean that they weren`t believing God.

That is what I was told oldies...by not only my bc`s my lcs, but by no less than lcm himself in the letter he wrote to me. I do not doubt that your experience was different than mine....the policies in place in the 70s were very different than the ones in the mid 80s....your experience as a man in the 70s has little bearing at all concerning the treatment of women and children in the mid 80s....what you saw... does not have any bearing on what I was told or what I was required to do .... so please quit trying to cram YOUR damn shoe on MY foot.. None of what you experienced negates what I was taught about the unborn child being regarded as a trick of Satan to trick me from honoring my vow to God. None of what you experienced negates that I was required to abort the child or be considered outside the will of God and therefor vulnerable to possession and death. Once again.......children were regarded as acceptable as long as they did not interfere with your spiritual responsibilities.... These things happened in SPITE of your experiences in twi oldies....so just DEAL with it.

It sounds like the scriptures are saying that judging from their actions...in spite of what they think of themselves...vpw and his friends might be in trouble.....lol

My family has a cabin on a lake in upper michigan that is gorgeous and available for any willing to travel that far and are willing to brave the bird sized skeeters ...lol

Wow ... I guess that cuts through the crap and says it all.

Oldies...I wonder if the reason that you were treated differentlly than the rest if us was the influence that your family member wielded due to her position held at hq. Also you might consider that policies that you experienced in the 70s differed greatly from the treatment I endured in the in the mid 80s Either way...I can only speak to what I was told ...what I was ordered to do ...and why.

Yup that is exactly what I am saying that I was told....and any who didn`t fullfill their corpes commitment`s heart never REALLY was corpes to begin with...just pathetic *wannabees*

Yup...I believe that if he had come clean...the whole ministry wouldn`t have been in the dark concerning the spiritual nature of our leadership....we would have understood what changes had to be enacted...could have demanded change...would not have been groping in the dark for solutions to the crisis. He didn`t give a damn....and even his wifes words the day of his funeral condemns him

To have been allowed to have had these children and still remained within the will of God and in good standing in the household would have been nice. To have not had to chose between the life of our child or the resultant spiritual and eventual physical death of ourselves was not much of a choice to have been allowed.

mindset is the key ... Have you a biblical reason to back that up oldies? Had vp repented before he died...he would have apologised....he would have also warned us to remove those whom he taught the same vile practices from the spiritual head of our ministry. As it was...they dragged twi the rest of the way down the toilet after his death. Vp had it in his power to do amazing good in his life time....he chose instead to hurt He had it within his power to enact great healing in the end....he chose not to... Vp could have stopped the pain and destruction in the end by coming clean and warning us to remove lcm and the bot.....in his selfishness he refused. He missed so many oportunities to attempt to repair the damage he wrought.....I don`t think much of his *intent* nor see how it mitigates his culpability.

Steve...there are some things that are just too darned low down for one to do for money....lol

ok goey, you are right..lol...sometimes I try to jam someone elses shoe onto my foot... I thought that I was reading that the reason that I was mad because Jesus hadn`t worked in my life yet.

So...the consequences of evil wrought .. is LESS evil depending on our mindset at the time? Some how the damage isn`t as destructive nor does it hurt as bad because of the persons intent? We shouldn`t be angry or hold the perpetrators responsible because God knows intent of their heart? Whew...THAT makes me feel a lot better.

Hmmm and what will he do with our bad works in the lord? The ugly destructive things that we did because twi told us that God required it? Is he gonna honor them too, because we did it in his name? Are the acts any less evil or the destruction any less damaging because we did it in God`s name? Is our culpability any less because our *motives* were good? No doubt that is how those some are able to sleep at night.

and then there are those of us who had no clue the depths of evil that were being practiced behind the scenes in twi....and remained oblivious ...staunch supporters even years after leaving.... There are those of us who supported twi through thick and thin never dreaming that we were the cover for heinous evil. It`s kind of natural to be peeved when you find out the depths of that betrayal...

Heyya Grasshopper, great to hear from you...well well, so you haven`t died yet? Satan certainly is taking his time in completeing your ultimate destruction for having the audacity to leave God`s protection in twi....lol I have been waiting for almost 15 years....maybe he is behind on his greasespot process because there are so many of us infidels on his list... Eventually one loses the feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop...and twi just becomes a bad memory.

We hosted light bearers one year in the late 80s...my husband being graduated corpes was pleased to be able to help these guys with anything within his means...having memories of the pressures from his own light bearers experience... The whole experience ended up being a colossal dissapointment...and left us seriously concerned about the direction the corpes and ministry had taken.... These guys were so standoffish....wanted zero participation with any of the local believers.....our town ended up feeling like we were nothing more than a means to an end .... used .....a place to crash a meal to grab....a fellowship to drag new folks to..a person to milk for a contact. We felt their patent disaproval over several things...but never moreso than when they cleaned my husbands desk (thus completely disrupting his business and order that he kept his accounts in) feeling that obviously we would be much better off without the spiritual distraction of a cluttered desk lol...my poor husband was nearly apoplectic... We wanted to bless them...attempted to treat them with the respect of visiting dignitaries believing the enormous value of what they were doing on the spiritual battle field...shoot it didn`t feel like anything we did measured up.....they didn`t appear to apreciate anything that was done for them...just accepted it as their due...basically they struck us as a pretty snobbish self centered bunch.... At that it was more impressive than the group that his way home hosted the year before we were married...sheeshe he said that one of the women attempted to sneak repeatedly into his bed after all were asleep...he finally had to get quite rude to stop her attentions. I know that most of you guys weren`t this way....but we felt at the time that it was indicative of the decline of the calibur of the training being offered and spirituality of the corpes leadership.

No doubt Just thinking ...absolutely no doubt about God`s mercy and grace...that was not my point at all...I meant taht it would be very difficult to live with yourself were one to fully comprehend the pain caused by heartless actions.