rascal

(((ex))) I am sorry.

I think that many of us were vulnerable and naieve ex, ....many of us had horrible childhoods, many with no one to educate or guide us....thus providing easy pickings for the predators. What really sucks is that they took folks that had been already been kicked in the teeth by life....gave us hope built that trust and then betrayed and violated us yet again.... Ya wonder how a just God could let it happen.

VP`s spiritual state is an assumption on your part mj......nothing that you have posted changes what galations says....nor what the consequences are in store for one who choses to live as a man of the flesh..... He fooled many many people...but he can`t fool God...his fruit bears unimpeachable testimony as to the state of his spiritual life.

mj, None of which applies to galations 5:19 -21 which tells us how to identify what a person is by the fruit that is displayed in their life....be they of the flesh or of the spirit...and what is in store for them. I have no respect for a man of the flesh who masqueraded as a man of the spirit... I have no respect for those who would try to excuse a man of the flesh`s attributes and try to pass him off as a man of the spirit. Take it up with God n tell HIM you don`t like the measuring stick provided in galations..I don`t care.

Mj, Galations tells us HOW to tell the difference between a man of the flesh and a man of the spirit...period...argue all you want, it wont change what the criteria is.....(no doubt so as to be a warning so folks wouldn`t fall for precisely the trap we did) Wierwilles actions land him in the flesh catagory...galations says (not rascal)...that he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God... I think that the scriptures you are flinging about are not aplicable to a man of the flesh. Make any excuse you please...Go ahead spout scipture that doesn`t apply...it wont change what galations says nor change the fruit in wierwilles life....nor the consequences in store for one who chose to live a life that manifested such fruit.

You remeber we weren`t ALLOWED to confess any negatives? Remember how we were taught about the lady that had so many horrible things happen to her she would just say to the mog *it is well*... We were not allowed to confess that we had any physical or mental weaknesses...and we weren`t allowed to *dwell* on them ..thinking about probl;ems...only meant that we were harboring thoughts from satan...remember? renewed mind...only one thought at a time....sheeshe...my husband still operates this crap....and we have been out for over a decade. Bottom line ...we were taught to ignore much that should have had attention..physical and menatl...counting on God to heal it.... I am astonished at what resurfaces from time to time that I shoved......way back .... even after all of these years.

Have you noticed when most people were happy? It was usually when they first got in...whatever the year was...don`t you remember how newbies were treated? The love and attention showered upon them....the genuine concern in helping them grow spiritually? I`d say that most of the *bad* times started when folks were encouraged to *grow up*...start showing their spiritual *maturity* by going wow...corpes ...adv. class...the pressure to preform ...etc In most of the areas I was in...if you weren`t activly climbing the spiritual ladder....you were considered to be kind of a substandard 30 fold type of believer and were treated that way accordingly. If you enrolled in the next class or were in preperation for the next rung on the ladder wow or corpes etc...you were patted on the back...lauded as a doulos...had the love and respect of our peers....who wouldn`t be happy when everyone you know treats you like a hero. If the going was rough...the experience unpleasant...so what, we told ourselves it was ok and were happy in the knowledge that we were tough enough to do the job...and it was just satan attacking us for our stands. I would say that the times that I was *happy* in twi were the times I was TOLD I was happy...you know...if you got a student in the next class...it was a show that you were spiritual....if a light changed to green when you were late ...it was God honoring your believing...if you were a wow that hadn`t eaten for 24 hours....you were a spiritual giant cause nothing was gonna trick us off the wow field....Jesus did it for 40 days...what was *I* complaining about? See I think that I was *happy* because I was playing mind games with myself....you know renewed mind? How can I be blue when I have thewordofgodlikeithasntbeenknownsincethefirstcentury ? Car broken down? No money for repairs or even the gas to put in it if it isn`t running? well how on earth can I be miserable when i have two good legs to walk on and need the exorcise anyway (in fargo in the winter glory to God)? I think that as we became more *committed* was drawn in closer to hq ...the veneer fell away...but by this time we were so adept at putting a happy face on everything...we didn`t realise how really bad it sucked. I think that it takes stepping way back and viewing our whole twi experience from a distance to understand just how much of our *happy* times were simply hype. Most here apreciate the friendships formed....seems to b the prevalent *good* if only good thing...but you would have made great friends in any intense activity that you participated in whether in or out of twi....

I don`t get why this thread has swerved from the very real abuse suffered by children at the hands of members of twi to the parents having to defend themselves against mj. See it`s just like with the abuse any of us guys...girls...children suffered in twi...we were decieved into trusting the perpetrators....thats why perpetrators are successfull mj, they are GOOD at what they do...the ones with poor skills are caught and jailed. We trusted these people because they had a good schtick ...they introduced us to God...we thought that they were honorable in their intentions ....sure it was naieve to trust but naieve is a far cry from stupid or criminal a far cry from the picture that you are painting of parents mj. Children suffered in twi period...and all of the condemnation and guilt that you attempt to heap on parents with your mischaracterisation changes this fact not one iota. Your attempts to draw attention away from ...and mitigate the evil visited on these poor kiddoes by attempting to heap the guilt and pointing your vile finger of blame on poor harried parents who were only trying to do their very best to serve God is unconscionable mj. See I understand child abuse from the kids point of view outside of twi....it is always someone the parents trust...someone in good standing with the neighbors and friends...with plausible excuses for spending time with the children...they are cunning...sick ...vile people who get their kicks from hurting....THEY ARE THE GUILTY ONES!!!! ...Geeze and here you are yet again blaming the ones decieved...the ones hurt...the innocents.... Your callousness as well as complete lack of comprehension regarding the reality of what was endured and why is bewildering. I understand oldies....I know who he is and why he feels that he needs to defend twi...I understand his agenda....you however I haven`t figured out...I feel that you are abysmaly ignorant concerning these subjects you feel so constrained to condemn us in. I sure wish that you would stop beating up the victims of these crimes.

Thanks George, too true, our experiences were not the same, thus the conclusions we draw can differ... I apreciate you compassion...No worries though....twi can hurt me no more...like I said...Life is good...I am content.

Sheeshe...you don`t like my Godly miracle story...you don`t like my warm fuzzy pfal story....you don`t like my significant impact stories... Oldies...I guess that I`d have to lie in order to be able to post anything that you wanted to hear....

I don`t know what you THINK you see oldies, I have told you that your perceptions concerning me cannot be trusted...so let me be absolutely chrystal clear in what I am saying.... Life has been inestimably better for me since leaving twi!!! The foot has been taken off the hose so to speak....God is at work blessing me, my family...the growth in understanding....the peace of mind...the true friendships ... relationships with my bretheren out here beyond twi boundaries absolutely PALLS anything that I experienced in twi...Do you understand oldies? Life became GOOD when I left! It`s like I finally found God instead of having to work so hard to be spiritual enough ... Once one experiences the genuine love and presence of God when liberated from twi....once one enjoys geniune friendship ...genuine spiritual growth....the spiritual desert that was twi is pretty bleak.....nothing experienced in twi could hold a candle to the genuine spiritual significant events enjoyed since leaving the darkness of twi. You attacks on my veracity will never change the truth Oldies....I know and the God that you claim to know, knows who speaks the truth here.

well It would seem that galations is the key to telling us whether or not john romans etc ARE applicable to an individual or not. You want to apply scriptures that are concerning born again christians to men of the flesh and wolves in sheepes clothing... galations simply tells us how to tell the difference between the two...

Well, the most significant things that happened in my life while in twi were pretty horrible...the face meltings...the false accusations...the forced selling of my horses...forced to get rid of my dog...so many things come to mind....the tc insisting that I sell my car to him for 300 bucks...way under the value because he needed it and it would be a burden to me on the wow field....I mean gosh there were so many *significant* things.... you want to talk about warm fuzzy memories when I took pfal? well gosh let me see ...oh yeah...one of the wows that undershepherded me was killed one morning during the class....oh I missed my high school graduation party that night because of the emergency meeting...kinda put a damper on my 18th birthday the next day..and cast a pall over the pfal graduation....wow what a week.. Lessee I guess that since satan ruined my class I had to pay him back by going out wow and striking a blow for God instead of going to college two months later.... Nope oldies...seems like twi was always one long spiritual battle of trying to be spiritual enough.....trying to serve God....always falling short...unpleasant consequences for not being spiritual enough. I guess the best fun in twi was when I was being *bad* during my 2nd wow year when we threw out the rules (with our lc`s blessing) and just had fun with God.....no classes no witnessing...just had fun...lol

Ummm nope...galations is pretty cut and dry. It shows how we are to identify someones spiritual nature.....not going to argue with it. I didn`t see vpw manifesting the fuit of the spirit when he was hurting our sisters and I will not excuse clear implication of the fruit that he DID display. You are the one who has a problem with the scripture...I am sure that you can find plenty to twist to support your view point ... you learned from a master manipulator. I chose to have no respect for one who chose to be evil whgile claiming to work for God....again, you read my lack of respect and my absolute disgust as hate....you are mistaken.

OOOOH you didn`t want to count the most memorable miracle that God wrought as one of my happy times in twi...ummm So happy times that God DIDN`T play a part in is what you are asking??? Ummm probably when we had dances in the big top with acts 29 playing...sammy preyn...joyfull noise...and wow burgers...yep definatly wow burgers.

Nope..not full of hate..lol....I don`t know why you view galations as not being reasonable or objective.....I guess because you don`t want to believe THAT part of the scriptures....your protestations will not change the fruit of the flesh in vpw`s life nor the consequences he will face one day according to scripture.. No hate ... no sweat off my brow....the dude will be in deep kimshee if galations is true...and it`s all his doing....I don`t understand why you are mad at me for what he did. Just because he was your pal and treated you nice doesn`t mean that he wasn`t a unscrupulous scum bag.....and making ME look bad isn`t gonna change what he was. Your buddy was a slime ball....

Sure....I would guess that the most spectacular Godly experience I had while in twi was an outstanding showing of God`s love ..... a demonstration of something so absolutely outragious...he showed me not once, but TWICE ahead of time that he was going to do it....something so crazy that I wouldn`t think that it was a coincidence ...couldn`t concieve of it actually happening....but would know that it was him..... Why did he have to go to such enormous effort to get my attention you may ask? Well it was because my twi leadership had so visciously slandered me...falsly declaring me possessed ...was physically violent to me....had so convinced me of my vile spiritual state that I crawled away to die spiritually ...I was devistated to the point of not being able to hear the voice of God nor see the hand that he reached to me....for nearly a year...I lived in the deepest shame...hoping the believers in my new state would not know of my degredation....ashamed and afraid to be around my brothers and sisters for fear of likewise contaminating them.....devistated beyond words because I didn`t understand how I could be what leaders who spoke for and represented God said... It took an outstanding unquestionable miracle for me to be able to get past the crushing shame of my leaderships branding in order to believe that God could care for me.....it took an unquestionable act of God for me to be able to understand that the bc`s opinion was not His......... So yeah there were Godly experiences...but usually it was along the lines of helping to heal the damage inflicted by twi`s false ministers......sigh

I don`t think *confession of belief* applies in this situation oldies lol....no matter HOW many times you profess your belief in vp`s spiritual nature....it wont alter the evidence of the fruit...and the consequences there of.

God must be one mean summabeeche if it`s HIS will that you think your doing here dude.

Mj...it is hard to remain civil when addressing your foolish assumptions about who we are or why we did what we did..... These people were very good at teaching us to ignore those internal alarms systems......it was always an issue of trusting God...not listening to satan by heading those alarm bells.....ensuring staying meek by implicit obediance to leadership...fail to do any of these things resulted in being stiff necked... dissapointing God and severing that spiritual connection.... It was always either do as we were taught or fail God...and even if they were wrong...God would protect you and cover for their error because of your heart and commitment.... So yeah...it was bull **** ...we see that now...but at the time I absolutely believed that God required these things of me...and no, contrary to what you posted... I was not protected nor were the children from pain....though we did as ordered and trusted God that it would all be ok. The only thing being attacked on this thread is the ignorance of your assumptions and the conclusions that you have drawn concerning our lives in twi.

This thread is about CHILD abuse in twi mj...why not try to contain your comments to that topic on this thread and please spare us your amature psychoanalys of the rest of us and our motives or at least post it on another thread.......the children mentioned here really had no choice in what happened and your observations are inapropriate here.

How horribly foolish of me to believe that the people who taught me the bible were men of integrety and honor.... I am SO to blame for being naieve enough to believe that their hearts and motives were as pure as my own.... May God forgive my ignorance when in placing my trust in those who introduced me to God and promised to teach me his word like it hadn`t been known....how dare I believe that they would help me to find all the answeres to lifes problems ??...how incredibly stupid of me to NOT suspect that they would lie about those answeres.. I am so to blame for falling prey to experienced con men...NOT! mj, there are accomplished cons that manage to fleece people every day ...they get away with it becasue they are GOOD! They are clever enough to be able to dissarm our suspiscions...thats WHY people fall victim to their ploys.... I REFUSE to accept the guilt and shame that you are attempting to lay on our shoulders in addition to the betrayal we suffered at these clever cons hands.

That is mighty sick oldies...just about the lowest you have sunk yet.... Mistaking respect for life and regret for life taken is such a far cry from practicing idolotry...that is the biggest bastardization of anybody`s position here or posts that they have written, that I have seen you manufacture yet oldies. Cool waters... these people have no compassion for what you and your daughter or the rest of these children endured.....the burdens that will be bourne for the rest of their lives....these are simply diversionary tactics to distract people from the guilt of the monsters they seek to protect. That any of you would cover for this evil ...or try to minimalise it speaks volumes of who and what you are.

Oldies...you cannot rationalise away galations. Galations simply tells you what kind of person one is by the fruit that he manifests... Doesn`t matter what he did in other areas ...who personally like what he taught ...anything else....his fruit brands him and his leaders...and galations tells you what is in store for those such as he.... I am sorry that you don`t like it, your lambasting me and accusing me of focusing on sin wont change the fruit of wierwilles life nor the consequences in store for him.

Your kidding right? you don`t think lust played a part in the adultery? you left out fornication...drunkeness...you never saw hatred? I sure did..Envy? You never saw strife? lol...... Galations is what I believe...it says that the fruit in vpw`s life define him as a man of the flesh and as such that he will have no inheritance....period... THAT is what I believe....all of your excuses in the world will not change the fruit in his life...nor what the consequences of living as a man of the flesh.