rascal

Yeah Geisha, Great point, on behalf of the churches...I have to say I am offended by Dove`s perception of a place that he has never deigned to visit. My smaller kids, and my teens and spouse and all of their friends attend a superb bible study every week. Kids come out from town. They are fired up and as dynamic as any fellowship I ever went to, and growing. The ladies in this same little country church raise money at a christmas craft bazzar every year. Guess who paid for my Dr. visit to the specialist when I couldn`t afford it last month?? Guess who took me all the way to Nashville, paid for the gas and took me to lunch afterwards? The retired minister with funds from these ladies. Because I asked?? Oh hell no, but because they found out that I was so terribly ill and unable to pay to even walk through the doors of the special clinic. The same lady took my kid to the local college last week and introduced her to the people who can get her the money for scholarships and such. Guess who starts college in the fall courtesy of these folks?? Yeah, MY kid. Thats just what they have done for me this month. Last weekend my teens were with this church helping build a house for a local family who lost everything in the last tornado. I heard recently about an innocent young woman sentenced to 30 years...she wasn`t even FROM this area, but came to this same ministers attention. She and people she knew fought for over 5 years and got the gal not only freed but exonerated and her children returned. We won`t even mention the cancer patient down the road that lives alone and is taken to her bi weekly treatments in Nashville. Know what else? We are not even members of this church....I might attend a couple of times a year....but hey....thats what Christians do for one another.....as opposed to the posers that play at being Christians in so many of the groups that have their roots in twi. Oh and think it`s a big metropolitan church with big dollars to burn?? There might be 25 active members.....and look at what they manage to accomplish, the lives impacted compared with twi and it`s millions, or the off shoots with their tens of thousands of members...What the hell good does their precious truth and doctrine that sets them apart REALLY do for anybody except make them arrogant and complacent and absolve them of any responsibility to REALLY act like a christian?

Well said Twinky! Seems to me a rule for faith and practice would be inspirational for faith and practice, not an exercise in finding ways to scripturally support acting as you damned well pleased.

Oh yeah, just like Jesus did when he called the pharacees whited sepulchers, filled with disease and filth on the inside...when he called them vipers, when he chased the money changers outta the temple and flipped the tables over. Or how about the love and forgivness he promised when he talked about it better a mill stone be hung around the persons neck and have them drown IF they hurt one of the little ones? What about the warnings concerning ravening wolves in sheeps clothing seeking whom they may devour? Knowing that vpw and his doctrine did as much or worse than ANY of these guys...seeing how they decietfully used the word for their personal gain......I imagine his expectations for us and our responsibilities aren`t too far removed from the reaction Jesus had in his day to those whom hurt the innocent in God`s name ...using the authority granted to them by their position...shrug...I haven`t broken out any whips or flipped any tables at hq yet...I haven`t drowned any of the child molesters though a few of them are in jail now a decade or so after the fact. So I`d appreciate it if YOU Mike would remove your sanctimonious finger of judgement out of the collective faces of those of us posters who refuse to follow your injunctions to do something that is entirely contrary to the example that Jesus set forth. Forgivness?? that ain`t up to me, that is up to God when or if these guys ever repent and ask. When they come and apologise AND attempt to make amends, as is THEIR instruction...then I will consider it my responsibility to forgive them. But hey let`s not let a little thing like specific scriptural instruction given by God if we believe the bible.... get in the way when wanting to encourage people to hide the evil that spiritually identifies these men as dangerous and renders their doctrines worthless.

Potato, I agree. I think that all of the studying and implementation of rules, principles, keys, laws etc. They all steered us away from our most basic and simple responsibilities.

Jesus said there were two rules on which everything was to be based.

Sir Guess, I think your attack on Steve was uncalled for. I asked him to clarify his statement, because to me, given the behavior in question it makes some sense. What is being promoted, is contrary to the Christian walk, or our responsibilities as Christians as Jesus laid them out, rather separates us from the simplicity of the genuine Christian walk by distracting us with busy work and wild quests that if followed may someday result in some nebulous reward or promise of spirituality. The people who designed this belief system, have been shown to be evil and have caused great harm, yet they are being presented as people of virtue and their ideas to be spiritually health. Sir Guess, I don`t know what your belief system is either, but you don`t need to be blasting anyone else here for theirs. As far as I am concerned....You are no more reliable an authority on spiritual matters than those you belittle as juvenile. Heck, I have read just as implausible stuff from you as well. So you have talked to Mike on the phone, so you call him brother...BIG freakin hairy deal...VPW was charismatic and managed to fool PLENTY of people into believing that he was a Christian and a man in whom God worked. The evidence of the fruit in his life states clearly otherwise. Steve, I am sorry if my request for clarification on what I thought was worth exploring has helped to bring you under fire. Not that I was claiming possession either, but questioning the source of the information of whomever is presenting it. VPW is long dead, whatever demonic forces were working in him could possibly be seeking to continue the legacy of harm as cleverly disguised bible teachings.

or insert some other name there if Martin Luther doesn't do it for ya... VPW! I think I remember Mike saying that even VPW himself didn`t agree with what Mike was saying when the theory was presented.

Steve, that makes sense. Do you think that we are talking to a spirit?

One would assume that if study of the bible with keys set forth in pfal were good for learning the rules of faith and practice, that the people who utilized these methods and taught others ... that they would have become spiritual rather than cruel and destructive. Those rules for study as far as I can see were simply exercises in finding ways to make the scripture support whatever agenda one personally wished to propound. The knowledge that one aquired studying by these means seems to me as well to have bred arrogance, puffed us up so to speak. I just don`t see how utilizing this one set of rules brought us closer to God....but in many cases led to some of the most cruel treatment of people I have ever seen. I don`t think that it works. I really don`t think that God is limited to the same way that he was with a particular people at a particular time in history over 2000 years ago as is laid out by the scriptures...shrug.

All really pretty excuses for explaining away their failure. Everything flopped and rather than take an honest look at themselves, and their beliefs that had lead them down this road.....they had to make it seem like the plummeting numbers, the lack of reception of the new classes and programs to come up with a way of making it all seem ok. That was always the way it was at way world, don`t like the implications of what you see? Just renew your mind to a different truth.

That is neat Kit, I`d like to get a copy of that book for my kiddo who is struggling. One of the things that I have found is that because my dreams were deferred to for so long and dismissed as unimportant or unatainable, is that I savor each accomplishment so much more than the average person that recieved things as a matter of course or without struggle. The kids, the horses, my dogs, great friends, each a gift to be appreciated and cherished. I am so impressed by what you all have accomplished, for how wide your scope and dreams are. You guys who got your education, you folks who traveled.... Nika, your story is a great life lesson and I am going to show it to my daughters who have been having a real hard time with the wrong guys chasing them. They need to understand why NOT to settle for mediocracy. Thanks girl.

You know? That used to actually be a pretty song :( The added words and lifeless singers sure sucked any and all inspiration from it now.

Damn Cheranne, THAT was amazing! The wolf was a powerful image as was the person in a jar. Who did this?

That was beautifully put Highway, That is precisely why so many of us stayed even in the face of outrageous abuse. We wanted so badly to believe that these were the Godly people that they presented themselves to be, and that they were there to help us be our best for God. This is why and when people rub our noses in it and say well it couldn`t have been so bad, look how long YOU stayed....I want to copy and paste this.

Mchud, he has been talked to by a poster here and according to them, he didn`t seem to believe he had done anything wrong. According to all reports, the man is a certifiable lunatic. Pathetically insane. What good are answers going to do coming from such a sad sick individual. You KNOW that according to twi dogma, he is blameless, that he sjouldn`t condemn himself, that Satan just targeted him becuase he wanted to stop the movement of God`s word. I have talked with people that were targeted by him. I have read how they were groomed to service him, and read of the harrowing results when they refused to participate in his little threesomes. He like his father in the word before him set out to visciously and utterly destroy any whom did not comply with their orders to be sexually serviced. That behavior above all others shows me the utter callousness and visciousness of these men`s souls, to want to completely destroy a person, to alienate all friends, family and have them completely cut of from the ministry.... What kind of satisfactory answer can you possibly get from such a man?

I have always admired martial arts. Though I was convinced that I was too old and out of shape to even attempt it, I began study at 40 with the kiddos and earned my own rank of black belt at 46 yrs old. Two of my children have earned theirs as well. My dream now is that the other 5 continue to study and earn theirs also. I have always loved horses and dogs, shepherds in particular. After twi, I was able to move to the country and indulge in my animal love.

This was brilliantly spoken skyrider. I want to add that even today, decades later, I know so many that are still struggling to apply these doctrines and principles that led us away from the simplicity of knowing God and the walk of a genuine Christian. :( I`ll also add that this march to conformity was designed to bleed every last ounce of individuality from us. Any gift that we had or strong suit unless it was along lines of your current leaders interests, was branded as time steelers and distractions from God. We were all forced into a cookie cutter mold.

.....and SPEAKING of bad things happening on the wow field (AND in Alabama no less), I believe the same year that George was there and the wow was killed by his fc. A wow was killed in my town while our class was going. Do you think anyone in the ministry heard about THAT outside of Huntsville?

Tzaia said.... Which was largely kept under wraps by even those who personally experienced those things. Don't you think someone with a modicum of common sense would at least try to educate others on the perils of going WoW? Based on my personal experiences, I found many of the higher ups ideas about how the world worked to be lacking in any sense of reality. I could not trust that they would act in my best interest and lived my life accordingly. Yeah...that is why coersion and brainwashing come to mind. What reasonable adult WOULD endure these things and not warn others?? Teachings about *renewed mind*, *never speaking a negative*, *If there was a problem it was because of your lack of believing* YOU failed, not the ministry or the formulas you employed, crimes went unreported a*lest the ministry be blamed* There was a whole slew of teachings designed to keep our mouths shut. Many of us were fresh out of high school and the class and made the mistake of trusting that these people had our best interests at heart and that the scriptures taught us were Godly instruction, rather than a weapon to be used to ensure complete compliance. I thought that it was a program of Godly design, that we were sent where God needed us with the people that we needed to be with to achieve optimal growth...to be on the front lines of the spiritual battle...to be a warrior and strike a blow against Satan. Man was I naieve.

I guess it boils down to success being relative. For TWI wow was a resounding success. Speaking as an individual participant? I`d have to say no.

I guess if one derived personal benefit from the programs, then they wouldn`t want to hear about or remember the times we went hungry, or the times that we placed ourselves in danger, the unpleasant people that we were forced to endure and serve under. Now...I am one who went out twice...because it was so great?? No, but because this was presented as the best way to serve God and grow spiritually. Many of us went out with pure hearts to serve in the spiritual battle, only to find ourselves beaten and battle weary at the end of the year. I am not saying that God couldn`t or didn`t work...I think that he works no matter how stupid the situation we place ourselves in or stifling the parameters in which we will allow him to work. I only have to look at the lives of my 3 syblings though to know what my life might have been had I never had the misfortune of being witnessed to by the wows that came to our city. They managed to survive and prosper just fine without the greatness of da word. No doubt the wow`s patted themselves on the back as successful for witnessing and running classes for folks like me that went wow and corpes afterwards....the *fruit* of their productive year....All I can say is that my children are the age I was then, and if ever a wow (I know they aren`t around any more) came sniffing around them, they would be facing a gun, because I would rather face prison than see my kids indoctrinated into a belief that would damage them like pfal did us and have them enslaved in an evil group like twi. I still have trouble forgiving the wows that derailed my life. I am ashamed of myself for my part in promoting the evil, enabeling it to survive and thrive. Wierwille couldn`t have done it without us.

Is anybody else even SLIGHTLY offended that seaspray would compare our contempt for the sleazy slimy wolf that sated his sick appetites on our innocent sisters, who stole that which wasn`t his in God`s name from the trusting generous saints, with Jesus Christ, the son of God, the innocent one who gave his EVERYTHING for us.... That is blasphemy in my book. That is sick and truly an indicator of the toxicity of wierwille dogma. VPW the most vilely evil man I have ever met or even rarely read of.....compared to the innocent lamb of God who gave his life for us...man

Another YOOPER! Alas, I am only a summer visitor. Always thought the U.P. was where I would settle one day. Tenn winters have grown on me though. I think that I am to big a sissy to do mich winters now :(

Ex, I have to agree with Geisha, Not All ministers are creepy know it alls. I could go on all day about the humble woman that teaches at the church my kiddoes like to go to. I myself don`t set foot in church very often, but when my kids asked to have me in the prayer bulletin, she called me to find out what was up and how she could help. I am so ill, I have been unable to take care of laundry of house work. She asked could she come and clean. Could she bring food for the kids, could she do laundry, and MEANT it. She has done it before. She offered to take me to my numerous dr. apts. and hospital for tests. I am not even a member of her church, just a soul in need. This is a woman who has loved me through all the post cult bs arrogance. I know that she can`t be the only minister out there that truly *ministers* to people on whatever level that they are able or willing to accept.

Agreed, VPW was requiring sexual servitude from our young sisters long before LCM had a chance to destroy twi. There were never any wheels ON twi imo.