rascal

Yeah Catcup, I have, but the forgiveness has never been ours untill we repented and asked ..was it? Sure the questions were addressed to Geek, and now to you....

I know Geeks tone wasn`t as such, but those that jumped on his band wagon were...as has been demonstrated by these posters before. I am of the opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to hold in complete contempt, as well as view with repugnance a person of low moral fiber and poor character WITHOUT being considered filled with bitterness or strife. Folks assume because I find a person and the behavior they endulged in, to be disgusting and reprehensible, that I am filled with rage or hate ....not so, it`s calling a spade a spade, n it`s identifying spiritual darkness...I don`t see scripturally where we are required to forgive an unrepenant sinner....As far as I can see, that is a missaplication of the forgiveness principle. Any thoughts Catcup as to my question? WHY were some people in the scriptures accorded forgiveness and others worthey of contempt and required to face the consequences...even unto death? Why did no one mourn annanias n saphira? why didn`t people run around trying to convince the hard hearted first century believers to forgive the pharacies and cut THEM some slack? I`d be honestly interested to know. Maybe if Geek has some answeres to those questions, I would be willing to consider his position. I want to know why vpw is to be viewed as any less reprehensible than any OTHER person in history who utilized God and scripture to steal from the unsuspecting....utilised the authority garnered as a minister to excuse the robbery and sating of their lusts....The ministers who betrayed the holy trust placed in them, not only by those they promised to minister too, but God almighty himself whom they claimed to serve? Maybe when Geek or others can answere these questions...when I understand ...I will then consider his opinion to hold more water than just nice sounding platitudes.

Lol...but don`t lick any of dmillers brownies Garth....trust me on this one. Didja ever wonder whats that brownie need fire engine red curtains for anyway?

Belle, trust your instincts girl, twi spent too many years teaching us to ignore them, many times to our detriment. If you enjoy everything else about the church, why not just ditch the study group? That being said, I have visited many churches and denominations since my departure....It always seemed like I was there for a *season* and then it was time to move on, I met wonderfull people....learned valuable lessons....but when it was time to go...I knew it...and as time passed, I learned not to feel bad...it is just part of my education and healing process. You won`t find the spiritual nirvana we thought we had in twi of likemindedness....we have seen the man behind the curtain....but that doesn`t mean we cannot enjoy what our brothers and sisters have to offer...the trick is not to begrudge them their own growth and maturation...they are on their own journey. Belle your problem, (if I may say) is that due to the garbage endured in twi, your bull sh-t o meter is extremely fine tuned and sensative hon, Stick with this group as long as it is beneficial, it isn`t necessary to agree with everthing...but when you have had enough, it`s time to go...God has lessons for you some place further down the road. That doesn`t negate this stop or the role that it has played in preparing you for the next step.

Geek, I gotta ask you, and anybody else shaking their finger in our collective faces about forgiveness.... What in your opinion, was the difference in the biblical accounts of people being destroyed for their evil, and those that were to be forgiven? Eh? When folks hurt God`s people, destruction followed, When Jesus addressed the saducies, and also in the account of the money changers, I never saw it written that he turned to the crowd n said *you neeeeeed to forgive these guys* No it would seem he called the pharacies some pretty bad names...it would seem also that he treated the money changers pretty harshly. What about ananias and saphira...never saw anybody being lectured to forgive them either...they were always held up as an object lesson in consequences. Why were some folks sins worthey of scorn and death and some worthey of forgiveness? Why were the consequences particularly harsh for folks who hurt those who looked to God? Could it not be that these predators of the ones searching for God, the innocents who trusted twi to lead them as they promised....could it not be that they TOO are worthey of scorn? Worthey of our disgust and contempt for their betrayal of our trust? Would it not behoove us to feel the same outrage that Jesus displayed when confronting the pharacies over THEIR betrayal of their responsibilities as representatives of God? I have no use for those predators, those destroyers of saints lives....sorry.

Nope, Maybe if they ever ask for it, I might consider it, though it isn`t mine to give or for me to excuse, when it comes to what they did to our brothers and sisters. As I understand the requirements, God doesn`t forgive us before we repent and ask, I don`t figure it works any differently for twi. They have not because they ask not I guess... If it floats your boat go for it, but I however, have no problem with feeling pure disgust for the obscene behavior perpetrated by folks claiming to represent God........reading the record of Jesus and the money changers, and the way he delt with the pharacies, the things he threatened those with, who offend children, It would be my guess, that he didn`t either. As I recall, the scriptures take a pretty dim view of predators that devour God`s sheep.

I see that you have ceased to attempt to iritate with my statement taken out of context, that is a very good start. I think however, that I will chose to continue to be intolerant of anyones view point that attempts to discredit any poster here or to negate the experiences endured, or mitigate the damage inflicted. If your posts don`t fall into those catagories, then we ought to get along just fine oldies.

What a twist oldies YOU are truly an artist..lmao...it was YOU who started this whole silly thread condemning those of us who no longer hold YOUR values.....accusing those of us who no longer accept wierwilles dogma.... of renouncing the word because of others sins...LMAO! An assertion incidently, that was been proven incorrect, as most of us have explained that we began questioning the dogma years before ever learning of the evil practiced by vp and his leaders.....not that I expect an apology for your misrepresentation of the posters here.... YOU are the one that demonstrates intolerance by the very title of your thread.....LOl you are a master Oldies, You are so damned intolerant of everyone elses view, that you have to label us liars, exagerating and manufacturing evils in order to maintain your story book wholesom image of a destructive evil organization........and yet ...lol you have the b-lls to accuse the folks whom profoundly disagree with your assesment as intolerant....lmao

Oldies...have you ever made a batch of brownies? When you mix the ingredients they become inextricably mixed...you cannot seperate the ingredients...Sure, you can cut off a corner here and there and CLAIM that you have cut out the bad stuff....but that does not change the essence of the ingredients of the brownies in any way.......you are still eating sh-t and claiming to love it... What we here are saying is that you oughtta chuck that whole contaminated batch, start over with fresh ingredients, oversee the preperation personally, and THEN you may enjoy the wholesom tasty brownies. Sure, it takes a little bit of time and effort, but the end result is definatly well worth it, as all here who have sampled the wholesom brownies, are attesting to. Untill then, you are just hording the sh-t that nobody else wants anymore, now that they know what good brownies taste like when prepared with wholesom ingredients.

I am also wondering, did the onset of your asthma coinside with a move...different area ...different house? Some houses are absolutely impossible for an asthmatic to abide in, as well as certain areas of the country.

I have severe asthma as well, it seems to be seasonal...starting around thanksgiving I am in bad shape, used to be till spring. Showers and steam help....a dehumidifyer can help... What has helped me is a change in environment when I get bad. We have started going to orlando for a week or two around christmas time and for some reason.....my lungs have a chance to recover, and when I get back to tennessee, I am no longer bothered. Not saying that it has to be orlando...but a temporary change of location might help. I empathise with you chaz...sometimes a ride in the car with the windows down helps too. Asthma sucks...especially when you are pregnant...even when I manage to sleep, I dream about not being able to breath....Get yourself a doctor who understands ...please, there is help to be had.

Borrowed from cool waters...TVM thankyou Very Much...lol.

TVM Garth, Ya think I can get im to line me up with a franchise if I kiss up enough?

Maybe we ARE posessed and just don`t KNOW it.... muahahahahahahahahahhaah That holds about as much truth as being a grease spot by midnight if we ever left the ministry that taught us God`s word. How about if we didn`t tithe to twi, it opened the doors to the adversary being allowed to get us... Gee it`s been over ten years and NONE of these things have happened....guess ole Satan`s got his hands so full dealing with alla us cop outs that he just hasn`t had the time to get around to me.

Come on now, quoting from mrs. wierwilles book is hardly gospel nor can it be regarded as impartial, catcup....nor can any of the publications that were published by twi offiliated people be seriously viewed as such. Simply because our collective experiences wouldn`t hold up in a court of law does not in anyway invalidate what we experienced, what we witnessed,...How we were impacted..and because that is recognised here... praise GOD we are ALLOWED to speak of them here....for some of us...it is the first time ever. Geeze, I would hardly call THAT a lower standard....different maybe, but absolutely necessary for many in our healing and in continuing on our spiritual journey. However... if you feel you don`t fit in here well, it might benefit you to examine more closely what IS happening ...You have to consider that we here, by in large are not interested in, nor hampered by having to support anybody`s elses case in a court of law, and so are allowed much more freedom to examine the evil experienced...to speak our minds...explore for and examine the missing pieces and eventually assemble all of the puzzle to view and understand the picture in it`s entirety..... I am not slamming you, nor do I wish to offend (today anyway ;-) as I feel that there is much you can add here, maybe much to be learned....it would be my hope that you will become comfortable....maybe even come to understand why it is that this place IS a place of blessing and healing...and even though not always fitting with others preconcieved mindsets nor necessarily always nice....It gets the job done. So consider please that the *lower standard* slam, kind of smacks of arrogance and in reality spits on the enormous good that God has seen fit to accomplish for so many through this web sight. Thank you, Cathy

Well yeah, I guess he WAS dissapointed in his denomination...Darn em, they took a very dim view of his um ministering to his secretary, according to many of the locals. Catcup, as much as I respect you, I think that when you conduct your research into the back ground of vp and his ministry, utilizing their publications....you are certainly going to find a rather sanitized view of the events....Consider that in quoting THEIR materials, in order to make your point, that you could very well be guilty of spreading misinformation as well. He was not a man of integrety, he lied to your face...how could one trust ANY material that his group put out? There is no credibility.

N so WHAT if DMiller makes a fortune selling his brownies to us...and as we sell to our friends and family.... Don`t let the fact that He talked us into providing the ingredients...used our electrictiy to bake them...baked them in our ovens....used our utensils to serve them on in OUR homes utilizing our furniture to make people compfy with...and made available milk that WE bought with our money to wash em all down with....AND our tp for folks to wipe their buts with after elimination of said brownies in our toilets......distract you from the reality that the brownies are being presented for the good of all consumers every where. It`s our duty and obligation to aid dmiller in any way we can...doncha see? Darn right he deserves every penny of that money accrued by the sales to buy for himself motor coaches, lincolns, airplanes and harleys to travel around the country and sell yet MORE brownies to the poor fools out here whom assume that store bought brownies and homecooked grannies brownies are sadly inferior simply because they are missing the secret ingredient. How dare we renounce dmiller, his brownies, OR deny others the opportunity to enjoy the unique flavor of such a special treat.

Do you guys know that by law, the hotels are not REQUIRED to change the bedding (and many many don`t) for up to THREE different occupants? Though they are required to give you fresh linens if you request...at least this was the standeard 5 years ago. Even some of the expensive motel chains cheap out this way....A clue to look for the news cast said was fresh fold marks on the linens. Got a story almost as bad pmosh....My sister and her new husband went to Orlando on the first leg of their honey moon cruise. They stayed in one of the pricier motels...spent the night, only to find to their horror the next morning, when they pulled back the blankets and sheets ......(anybody squeemish look away now).......somebody ELSES used condem in their bed .......yuck yuck yuck.. I haven`t been able to stay in a motel since....bought a tent and then a camper instead.

I have to wonder....does knowing the pithey details of those questions REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things....outside of twi? I wonder, does anybody really care if it was two or four with Jesus, does that change the story or point one iota? In knowing how many times Peter denied Jesus...Does it make the denial anymore poignient? Sounds like we were straining at gnats to me. In hindsight, I wonder if it wasn`t all just head knowledge to puffeth ourselves up with so that we felt special...Most of us were taught to be so busy focusing on these silly details that we missed the whole point of the book....Jesus and the message he came to bring...ie love God n love your neighbor.. ..it has been my experience since leaving, to focus on that, and all of the rest of the details seem to fall into place. Seems like I was much too busy in twi with our intense scriptural studies n operating those principles, taking/running classes and participating in programs and meetings in order to attain spirituality, to be bothered with either one.

Yeah, well y`all forget that ya gotta eat and enjoy dmillers brownies because I have heard that there really isn`t any OTHER brownies being baked out there worth enjoying. I am very dissapointed that y`all can`t find it in your heart to forgive dmiller his transgression and just enjoy his brownies....WHERE is your gratitude? shame on you all.... Ex 10th agreed, God wouldn`t allow some to suffer, thats what the whole lost sheep story is about...the preciousness of each sheep in his flock..... Excathedra, I am amazed at your patience with folks.

Dunno learning, s`far as I recall, the only group I can remember him in is Branded.

I loved just meeting and talking to the next person in line while waiting for a meal or a shower...I loved how everyone always helped each other...I loved wow burgers...I loved biscuts and gravey in the morning with a great cup of coffee...I loved meeting an old friend from another state for an ice cream cone in the hot afternoon.... Running accross your old wow family....hanging out with your advanced class buds.... The air of excitement of who were you gonna run accross next.... The feeling that your job was the most important project currently going on the planet....(good thing cause it was usually garbage pick up lol) I loved looking for bumper stickers on the way to the rock...

I am sorry 70s, no depression intended...there were lots of fun times at roa....that is why it was so dismal when things changed and became completely orchistrated and controlled. I gotta say, as much of a scounderal as vp was....he could STILL throw a great party...roa really went down the toilet after he passed away. It makes sense that the folks at hq wouldn`t *get* it...the ones that made these stupid choices....they were always at hq...didn`t understand the true heart and fun behind roa...of everyone meeting old friends...the fellowship with new people....the meeting of folks from all over the usa and world....all they saw was expense and another area that needed to be controlled.

Yeah, George, agreed.... we are all at different stages of our journey, we have all have taken different paths as we have been led. The problem comes comes in when folks want to condemn or slam another for the direction they have been led...or attempt to discredit the course embarked because they have chosen to remain in port. Some would cast aspersions on the characters of those who have continued onward in their journey. It appears to simply drives em nuts that they cannot control the course of OUR destiny. I have no problem where a person chooses to be at, or the course they have chosen....just don`t force your damn shoe on my foot...ok?

Yeah I know, I only PLAY one on gsc. Too bad you guys have no answere for my questions, as many of us still genuinely feel the sting and are living with the consequences of that betrayal.