rascal

John n oldies, THAT attitude is a shining example of what years of participation in twi develops within one....It ain`t pretty....It ain`t christian, and it certainly ain`t right, not by a long shot. Come on Frankee, being a christian, doesn`t mean you have to be a wuss, surely your eyes are not so tender that names can offend you to the point of fleeing? Shoot as far as name calling goes, Jesus had a few choice nasties reserved for guys hurting folks.....

Yeah, as I undertand it, oldies, some of em understood the unique responsibilities required of one functioning at such a high area of spiritual responsibility....there in lay their value.

(((((see me))) The horror that you went through is unimaginable, but to have to endure the ugliness of the ministry and his family as well, is apalling. They should have been the FIRST at your side, and instead, they covered for the evil....this is not the first reported child molester that twi knew about and attempted to intimidate and hush up the parents of the victims, In one case at least, they succeded, and the perpetrator was sent to another state in a leadership capacity to destroy other young lives and families. Had you and your daughter not been strong, Mark would have been free to perpetrate this evil yet again.....for no telling how long Thank God for your determination and strength, there is no telling how many vulnerable young lives have been protected, had you and your daughter not had the guts to see this through...Thankyou. You and your children have shown such strength, moral fiber, and character, you have my respct.

Frankee, a word of advice, don your asbestos fire resistant underwear if you are gonna play here....lol You say that hairy isn`t nice for calling names??? Oh Come ON.....John advocates *clocking* someone simply because they annoy him ???? (I guess offering the attention and love required to address a mates problem would be to much to ask) I`d say that UH is right on the money.

Chatty, I share your disgust, the mask is slipping on john a bit, I imagine he and the guy that supports him, simply loved the way the women were kept in line in twi....I know more than one case of physical violence being advocated as acceptable to keep the little lady in line....as a matter of fact, his phrasing is chilling, as it is almost exactly word for word what I heard from some leaders while I was involved.....wierd thing is, I can remember not questioning it at the time. I clearly remember being told in twi, that it if a wife was struck, it was her fault for not knowing when to *shut up*....

Frankee, you are correct, i was not considering it a man/woman thing, when I mentioned the hubbies culpability, if you will notice, I mentioned the psychiatrists and institutes that turned them away as culpable first and fore most.... I even think the ministers share some responsibility, the ones she spent so many years earnestly trying to follow their instructions....they had her believing that prayer and bible study would bring her the peace she so desperatly sought after....she just needed to have stronger faith was all....she tried for years So many people that played a part in this tradgedy, The lady is nuts, she did what she thought her spiritual duty to God was, It was up to those around her male/female professional and family that were in control of their faculties to protect those children.

You know what is REALLY wierd, is when you leave twi as a couple....after your twi faces begin to fall away, you realise that you really don`t know this person at ALL! OMG ....to wake up and realise that you are married to a stranger, and you really are not sure you like them at all is scarey. You both have to go through your own growth process, develope who YOU are.....it is quite humorous in our case..... me the flaky animal nut, who rescues every stray that crosses my path, be they animal or human, married to the ever practical, logical, frugal, non animal person.....it is astonishing who we became, when finally allowed....

oops

One of the reasons life is SO good outside of twi, is that for the first time in my adult life, I am allowed to be who I am. I gave up all interest and hobbies at the behest of leadership, as they were not deemed profitable for moving the word....so many dreams and goals.... I gave up all individuality....as I was informed in no uncertain terms that I was to have no opinions outside of those dictated by twi leaders, and later my husband..... and folks wonder why I am such an opinionated, immovable witch these days.....lol I guess that`s what comes from 20 years of supressing *me* .... I am determined to be and enjoy the person that I spent 20 years pretending didn`t matter.....lol For the first time in my life, my opinions, my desires, my thoughts and goals are important and worthey of consideration.

I know that the husband tried at least two different psychiatric treatment centers in the days just prior to her murdering the children. I think that the two psychiatrists and the hospitals and medical staff that wouldn`t admit Andrea, and ignored their desperate pleas for help are criminally negligent as well. John, he is culpable in the fact that HE was the sane one, it was his responsibility as the husband and loved one to care for and protect not only Andrea from herself, but their children from her insanity as well.....since as an insane person, she was unable to do either.....insanity and delusion, is not something that you just turn on and off when it is convenient.....as the one in control of his faculties.... he shouldda taken charge....he should have stopped impregnating her when the doctors warned him repeatedly that she was in danger, instead of pronouncing her cured and doing as he damn well pleased....there in lies his guilt.

Thanks belle, honestly scarey isn`t it? Glad that you find me so entertaining Oldies...what a shame you cannot make an attempt to understand my salient points, rather than simply dismissing them as unresolved anger.

Nope nothing at all about the yates conviction, but relevant when considering doing unimagiable horror for what one believes to be the will of God .... ....She did it because she is NUTS!!! I understand doing that which one finds deplorable as a duty required by God....I believe it/us to have been nuts as well.... You seem to think that her nuttiness in her struggle to do God`s will, and the brand we practiced in twi are different.....I don`t find her mindset to far from that which was required of us as doulos in twi... As I said, the line between killing because one is posessed vs killing because one is doing the will of God, seems a bit blurred to me. Ok, so the difference in your book lies in the facts that it wasn`t unlawfull and the baby wasn`t outside of the womb...therefor that makes it ok to do in service to God. Andrea thought it was required by God and ok because her offspring weren`t *developing* properly.... There will always be reasons to think that the destruction as ordained by God and his leaders necessary and ok..... We were not to far from being that nuts ourselves......throw in a little ppd and undiagnosed mental illness, some stress, and voila

ohhhh... Fetus is not considered offspring... silly me... it is officially offspring after 8 or 9 mos....THAT makes all the difference. Lemmee get this straight....destruction of offspring can be considered the will of God or not, simply depending on a time line.....the number of days since conception.......funny I thought that there was plenty of debate going on about that nationally, and you are saying that as long as it IS`NT against the law in the good ole usa, it is ok spiritually......but then erm, what about all of the OTHER practices in the usa that allow homosexuality, adultery, fornication, etc to be practiced unaposed....there is no debate about that lawfully either.....I suppose that makes these things acceptable to God as well?? Shoot he is gonna have to do some rewriting no doubt. I think I understand, as long as you think God tells you, and it ISNT against the law, it is ok.......

*not in man`s nature to kill their own offspring*... no but (as distastefull as one finds it) at times simply necessary, as long as it is for a Godly purpose..isn`t that what we were taught? Andrea slaughtered her offspring, because she was convinced that it was God`s will... she has demons, but when we were required to destroy our offspring in twi, we did it for REAL Godly reasons and are therefor spiritual....ok `sa mighty blurred line to draw between killing for God and killing for Satan.....

Gosh, it is amazing what involvment in twi will do to a person, I knew the Graml*chs before they were married, they were pretty nice people back in witchita when they simply ran a twig......what a shame that their continued involvement has molded them into heartless brutes.....it says so much about the group.

*Tsunami of evil* THAT is the most apt description that I have ever read concerning involvement with twi.

Radar, I will be in Fla next week, if that is not to late, check your pt`s.

Sudo had a great idea with the ham, however if cost is an issue, here is a super easy recipe for ham, that is so delicious and simple. Place a whole ham in a baking bag, add brown sugar, honey, and a can of pineapples (with juice). Close and seal the bag, put it in a deep pan and place in the oven and slow cook (about 250) you can put this in the oven the night before or first thing in the morning if you want it for lunch. By the time it is ready, it is falling off the bone tender. Serve it up with some bread or rolls, and cheese....it is fabulous. A great yeast roll recipe ...that goes great with this is.... I package of jiffy white cake mix. a package of yeast. 3/4 cup of warm water. 1 3/4 cup of bread machine white flour. dissolve yeast in the very warm water, and let sit. In a seperate bowl mix your flour and cake mix, add a pinch of salt. add yeast mixture, cover and let sit 1 hour. After one hour, it should have doubled in size, take it out and on a floured surface, kneed a little bit (adding a little flour to keep it from being too sticky) and flatten it. Then cut like biscuts and place on a greased cookie sheet. Let sit in a warm draft free place for another hour and then bake for aprox 10 miniuts on 350. Fabulous and really easy.

Galen, I am so sorry for this kick in the teeth. You guys have been heroic in your attempts with these children, only to have hearts broken all the way around by this foolish system. You and Bonnie, and these poor children all have my prayers....

*manufactured reality* whew....it was really tough to leave the way and then find out that you know litteraly nothing about your spouse. Damn, both of us were sobered to realise that neither knew anything about the other....we simply loved our twi *faces*. Having several small children, meant that we needed to suck it up, and carry on anyway, whether we liked the real us or not. We are so opposite...I the impractical, flakey animal nut, he the ever logical, frugal loner. We have to deal now with all of the issues ignored during twi years, the damaged souls from our harsh childhoods... It was tough, because both of us having joined twi at young ages....and being committed participants for all of our adult lives.....we really had no idea who we were....it was staggering to realise in our mid 30s we were going to have to reinvent ourselves, our values, our belifs, our goals, our likes....what our place was in the universe....it seemed so crushingly overwhelming at the time....

Amen Shell, not to mention a grieving concerned husband wouldn`t order all of the play boy/nudie channels within a few days of the mysterious dissapearance of his wife and son.....pretend he is in paris while talking to his lover on the phone while attending Lacy`s candle light vigil (now THERES an exhibition of deep concern)........ice cold don`t even describe this sleaze.

I nap anywhere anytime I can...sometimes for half an hour sometimes up to four hours....it is how I survived with fussy babies all those years....now it is necessary for working thirds.

Leave with the Gold??? They took everything that I had.....stuff they had no right to, damn em.

Thanks Act 2, apreciate it. That is really impressive Z, congratulations! I love Raquette ball, but neither have the agility or skill to play very well. Living our dreams is SO cool, something that was stolen....and is now recovered....and now all the more precious to us

Hee hee, I guess that I am *some people*. Maybe *some people* see and believe that twi is continuously evil because we EXPERIENCED great evil at the hands of twi leadership, as well as had friends that were treated in a visciously cruel manner. Maybe *some people* would HATE to see that happen to any other naieve unsuspecting person....one who`s suspiscions are disarmed because twi teaches from the bible. Maybe OTHER people simply didn`t experience the evil, and wish that *some people* would just stop speaking up...lol .... because OTHER people had family members that were placed in a position to buy them some immunity..... Moral of the post? Don`t get involved if you don`t have friends in high places, to protect you from the evil.