rascal

Again, that is just not a fair representation of the facts Dove. Number one, I have no agenda. I consider that statement a personal attack on my integrity as a poster here. Number 2 is that I think that what you CHOOSE to do is ignore anything that contradicts your limited perceptions of a part of twi and it`s people whom you never personally interacted with yourself in order to try to support your theories. Fine, thats what YOU do....However, when you stoop to misrepresenting the people or the facts involved in order to attempt to make your point, you WILL be called on it.

Dove said *Actually he has been judged by a small percent of posters here on an exway site dedicated to speaking negatively about the way* Hmmm I`d say accounts from former leaders whom personally witnessed his misconduct. Leaders accounts whom have had to council the victims of his misconduct. Countless victims accounts of his misconduct themselves There is a book published documenting his misconduct by a licensed professional. Other web sites such as messiah7 that have numerous accounts of his misconduct....This in my opinion, hardly constitute *a small percentage of posters*. As far as what THIS particular site is dedicated to, I`d say the guys who have insisted that VPW shouldn`t be held accountable for the evil that he did....ie shut up and don`t speak of it....have had a mighty fair shake here....To indicate othewise is insulting to the host and those whom try to keep it fair and balanced. I`d say that Dove`s assertion of whom has judged VPW and WHY so many many whom have actually met the man and had direct dealings, find him so damnably guilty is a less than an honest representation of the facts in this instance.

I gotta say, he WAS one of the good guys. He taught a tremendous amount about holding people even leaders accountable scripturally. I was readily forgiven, He and Naomi busted their bu tts to treat the wows well...I loved them very much. Thing is, that great heart and kindness for people just made the poison that he had bought into and was selling palatable. I think that he was a great fellow, the meanness that contaminated so many, wasn`t tolerated by them when I was around. He just believed and taught some really bad stuff.

The meeting I went to was same old same old. The only thing that had changed was that he had solid white hair and was a little pudgier than in way days.

Guess you would have to point out which particular post that was.

Maybe if you had been the one who`s life had been impacted by a man whom presented himself as a minister, be it 30 years ago or not, it would hold more relevance. Especially if the guy was still presenting himself as a spiritual authority. Nice or not :(

Your probably right, but the man had a monstrous ego, and he absolutely despised women. To see how pitiful his world wide ministry had dwindled...that his precious ministry is run by emotional women that ought to be answering to some man. The guy that he personally hand picked and trained, supposedly by God`s devine inspiration, thrown out disgraced, a certifiable lunatic.... his wife, as badly as he personally had treated her...was removed from the family farm, her home for so many years, and placed in a nursing home...all of his children, and the majority of his granchildren forbidden to step onto the family farm.... Like I said, poetic justice. To bad he can`t see what his legacy is today.

What I have found through the years Geisha, is that one persons hero in twi was another`s night mare. Ralph D. is the only leader in all of the years that I have read gs that not had someone come forward and accuse of misconduct. He is one of the few with the courage to post here and answer the tough questions. Frankly, given their fruit, I don`t believe that many of the leaders were Christian...so that leaves insane. I don`t believe that twi doctrine was condusive to introducing folks to living a Christian life style.

Wow...remember how old vpw used to brag in the class about never writing down his teachings lest the devil read em and prepare his congregation over night against the message?? As much as I despise the old b-stard....he would be really freaked if he saw what had become of his lifes work....lol now that I think of it...it would be poetic justice....His ministry run by women, the people too afraid to do anything more than read pre scripted teachings....brother

Interesting what happened to him when he wouldn`t succumb to the crap once it was clearly unveiled. He was villified as possessed. Interesting how many people vp and then craig did that to in order to cover their arses with the folks that wouldn`t play ball.

Ralph D was one of the guys that stood against the crap and paid the price for his integrity and courage.

...and MAYBE they give the appearance of helping and being alright so that people never do break out and get the help they actually need. They remain forever locked into a poor substitute for the Christian life. It`s like never having to grow up, or seek help. You have all of the answers and don`t need any balance outside of their group. My husband gets their garbage...I think in some cases it provides a valid sounding excuse to remain a horses arse...arrogant in the participants knowledge and the spirituality that it supposedly buys them.

One wonders how *great* JT could be if he associates with Geere KNOWING what kind of monster the man was. Knowing what VP was....I just have a really tough time reconciling the image of the guy I thought of for so many years as a hero with being complicit with these guys. I really liked him and Naomi. But then again, they were the ones that insisted that getting pregnant wasn`t a sin....no biggie. rather.... it was in allowing the little paracite to interfere with the completion of ones wow or way corpes commitment that set one outside of God`s will. Might die like Annanias and Saphira when THEY lied to God. You cannot break a vow to God :( That was what I learned from them during my wow year.

Happy birthday Leonardo Enrique!! That is my Abby`s birthday as well :)

I went to a state function/limb type of thingee over 11 years ago. It was compromised of ex way folks and he taught. Couldn`t tell you which group he was with or if he was just a guest speaker...shrug At the time he seemed to be teaching the same stuff. Don`t know what he is doing today or what he believes, as people change a lot in a decade.

Great point.

Waiting with anticipation and prayers for your family! :)

Well ...aside from being sickened and offended at drugging, seduction, rape, child abuse, families destroyed and death of people at the hands of this man and the men he trained...being laid at the feet of God...that these people had it coming as a matter of course...whew I guess that I am amazed at the evil that can be excused, condoned and ignored in this man in order for ones theology to have any credibility. All in all, the callousness required to believe this makes me very very sad.

I am ashamed to say that I believed that if these guys said it...that it was right, that they worked for God. Any lack was in my own misunderstanding and lack of spiritual perception. There were teachings that backed this up and enforced obedience. If we questioned leaders, it was the first step in the down fall like Eve. If we resisted even when wrongly accused, it was being stiff necked. There was only one option if one desired to stay in God`s will and within the protection of God`s hedge. Hang your head meekly, accept their judgement, beg forgivness for your lapse in judgement and hope that the leader cared enough to help you fix whatever was wrong with you that caused the spiritual weakness in the first place.

Geisha, I think that is precisely why people are conditioned to despise churches and the people who attend. Sure I have met a jerk or two, but it is like the minister said to me once. We are all at our own place in our walk and understanding. We all work together towards that goal of becoming more Christ like in our walk. I thought that was brilliant, and it helped me tremendously to get over my judgemental attitude and learn to love people where they were, as so many in this church and community have done for me post twi.

I`m glad that you reposted shaz` answere to THAT bit of garbage. Wow, well said...women and children would have been abused and raped, families would have been torn apart, lives destroyed anyway whether vpw or those he educated were personally responsible or not. That is the creepies accusiation I have seen yet laid at God`s feet in defense of the false prophet.

All I know, is there wasn`t any *Obama* programs for me, and that sometimes working hard isn`t always enough to avert catastrophy. I am just damned glad that I was around people in whom the spirit of God was alive and willing to work....that Loved God and Loved me, because if I had been in a splinter or heaven forbid, twi there certainly would have been plenty of doctrine to figure out ways to blame me for my predicament, people to point fingers of condemnation and ignore the suffering, as was demonstrated so aptly above. What splinters don`t have, folks must find ways to maligne and dismiss as unimportant. I just know that all of that dry doctrine, no matter how hyped up it is touted to be...without charity is nothing more than a bunch of worthless noise.

I think it bothers me that what off shoots teach, separates their adherents from so many wonderful Christians, effectively keeping them contained and under the control of people who don`t bother to find out how to genuinely love and serve the people within their sphere of influence. If you never leave because the churches are represented by your leaders as worthless, you will never see and be able to compare how genuine Christians love and treat one another. The knowledge is worthless without the love :(

I think that offshoots provide a safe place where one can still feel like they are *right*. That they can still feel like they are of value. There is no need to face the tough truths, No need to examine the validity of ones basic spiritual understanding...to change ones behavior if one is surrounded by folks that agree and are patting you on the back as a spiritual giant. It is why I think that participants get so nasty when people share theiir stories of abuse and the evil nature of the leaders. One must make the victim out to be a liar or somehow deserving of the treatment in order to maintain ones illusion of being spiritually ok. Describe what is meant by *haven* please? I guess it could be seen as a *safe* place....but does it necessarily mean healthy?

Well said Skyrider. I think my biggest problem with off shoots is that they appear to continue the propaganda machine that prevents folks from actually getting out and meeting people that could provide balance and an honest perspective.