rascal

I have never PRESUMED to speak for everybody else....lol You Oldies, have repeatedly called MY personal experience *lies*....the experiences spoken of first hand by other posters and coorberated...anything that disturbs your rose colored view of way world.....sorry fella, it happened....all of your deniles and protestations will never change it. anyway.....what you doing trying to knock me offa MY pedestal anyway buddy? Get your own.

Hey smurff....I have that very same trouble with my spouse as far as health issues with myself and children. He also refuses to allow me to drive *his* car because in his opinion I do not practice *believing* and praying for the damned thing...(he of course is free to utilize and trash my vehicle) I have had to just ignore his sarcasm and ire and do what is necessary for the health and well being of our family. God will hold me responsible for what I know and do ...in SPITE of my spouses beliefs....so I just do my own thing and let him splutter....eventually in his own time he will come to grips with the falacy of that teaching.

Ummm I was told that as long as I gave over 10 percent of my money before taxes to twi....God could protect me and Satan would not hurt me.... Sounds like a clear case of extortion to me.

*WE* that is to say those who participated in twi DID experiece all of the above...and more.

Def, I didn`t say that the bible WASN`T true....not by a long shot.....I was just saying that there appears that there might be to be more to the story than we were led to believe in twi.

*it`s their decisision and you might do well to just accept it* You don`t DO that when someone you care about is walking into a situation, oblivious to the impending danger. On the contrary, one fights with every weapon in their arsenal to help the loved one to safety....in spite of the protests..someday you will be thanked. Good luck TaylorCo. your prayers insights and efforts may be the very tools God utilizes to aid yet another family to freedom! Don`t give up, it is a noble effort.. I agreee with Hiway, don`t offend them, don`t paint them into a corner....honest concern, genuine caring will shine through, and they will feel comortable turning to you when it all comes crashing down around their ears.... Give them no reason to brand you as a heretic, and there for untrustworthey.....

If you are truly interested in a deeper understanding.....you might consider researching cuniform sumarian texts.... The story of the flood, the story of the tower of babel, and many others are found there....many thousands of years older than any of the judean texts....a few of the names and facts vary, but essentially the same ... I have read that the Judean prisoners were highly valued as scholars and were put to work translating these texts, and that this is where they supposedly got much of their history that was subsequently to be recorded as biblical history. Their translations were limited to their understanding at the time.....reread those same records with todays understanding is fascinating. It changes nothing of our knowledge, just increases our understanding of what could have world/universal history.

My neighbor (a retired minister) has some great thoughts on this subject. He believes that the bible is a great historical record of how God delt with a certain group of people during a certain era of history. It can teach us of his attributes, his love, his willingness to work within the framework that we will allow and can understand....but it is by no means the ending of the story.... Like children, as we grow in our understanding, we are able to understand more....kind of the *seeing through a glass darkly* type of thing. I think that sometimes we limit ourselves as Christians when we don`t continue our growth and walk beyond the scriptures of two thousand years ago. In twi we were taught that the bible was the end all be all of Christian existance ...that our lives and growth had to be molded into the cultural norm of judean times. I think that can be extremely limiting....being governed solely by the cultural norms and the methods that God addressed the culture and people of two thousand plus years ago....to attempt to fit the interpretations of genesis into the facts of today will take a lot of torturing and twisting of the scriptures. I see us as ever growing evolving in our walk and understanding....as long as what I am learning is never at cross purposes of the two *new* commmandments that Jesus said were important.

I don`t know.....there have many different *die outs* different epochs in world history. From the trillobites to the great mammals... Life has been evolving and dying for millions of years.... We have found evidence in our creek bed of the earliest life forms that crawled on the ocean bottoms...different plants, shells .. a crab, our neighbors have trillobites....further up the hill we have found dinosaur tracks and fossils that tell of life and death hundreds of millions of years ago...higher up we have found a three toed horse tooth giving evidence of the life cycle of mammals 25 million years ago.... Finally while digging a pool, we found evidence of old campfires, bones from animals that had been processed, broken flint spears....even a stone hoe...the age of these relics gives evidence to life and death tens of thousands of years before the genesis story of when life and consequently death supposedly arrived on this planet. I think TWI might have been mistaken in it`s teaching of the chronolgy of life and the arrival of death. Consider this....that when you have to give an explanation to a young child, you have to give it in terms and concepts that they can grasp. Think about the mentality of the judean people, ten thousand years ago... or even earlier ... the sumerian people which is where many of the earliest form of the biblical records were found) If God was to give a history.... The accounts of genesis had to be given in terms that goat herders could accept and understand...and as with children, as we grow and mature, our understanding can become more detailed. Now that we as a race have advanced intelectually....it is not necessary to limit our understanding of planetary history to the understanding in our infancy....I figure maybe all of the evidence of the former history is yet one more adventure in new lessons to be learned beyond the understanding of our ancestorors ten thousand years ago. This doesn`t negate the scriptures....they still lead up to Jesus and the two *commandments* he brought us. Love God and love your neighbor. With so much evidence in my back yard, world history is my passion. So no, I do not think that death came in the garden first...I do not think that the carnivors ignored the herbivors...untill Adam sinned...The evidence in my back yard says that man was killing and dying way before the genesis story.

Wow....5 years....(((((Pawtucket)))) thankyou. dmiller said it well 8this site is a *light in the night* It is as important to me now as it was when I tentatively walked through the doors when you opened. So much healing, so many memories....sigh I think that the site is awsome as is.....but will eagerly embrace the improvements.

I have been waiting almost 15 years for the death and destruction to assail my family since departing from the umbrella of protection afforded those whom fellowship with God`s ministry. My intense fear was the consequences to be visited upon our heathen selves for not tithing...good lord I was terrified at the thought of the destruction that was inevitably going to fall now that God`s hand of protection had departed from our lives.... As I am fond of pointing out....not only did we not die....our family increased...SIGNIFICANTLY! We have prospered beyond our wildest dreams .... I like to believe that we here are living *in your face* PROOF that twi teachings are wrong!

Well there were other nurses who spoke up through the years...one was terminated when she filed a report and was contacted by the police regarding the husbands behavior to Terri. Many staff members have come forth condemning his behavior and unwillingness to allow the treatment needed.

Sorry Rottie, though we are on oposite sides of this issue, I should not have upset you...... My remarks were directed more at oldies and mstar...... I guess that as a Mother, my sympathies rest with her folks is all....as passionatly as I feel, it is no excuse to being offensive to you. I apologise.

Agreed Vickles.... You know....even if she WERE in a persistant vegitative state...(which Dr.s who have NOT been allowed to testify have stated in signed affidavits) that would mean she wouldn`t have any awareness of her surroundings.... So what the heck would it hurt to let her family have her to love and nurture for her remaining days? Attacking the parents and calling them selfish is way over the line. I just heard one pt nurse say on tv that when Terri was in her care one day.... Michael exploded and demanded to know *when the bitch was going to die?* Nice guy.

Ummm I guess that would be a no?

Bull dang is right mstar ... you guys that want her dead...are you guys parents? You are simply repeating the retoric that makes her murder seem socially acceptable. He is a sleazeball and a murderer....whether he be supported by the courts or not.

That book sounds like it makes some pretty good points Pat, It is common that feeling, as time passes though and you distance yourself from twi....the decisions become easier....you relax and realise that mistakes are not a reason to become tied up in knots.... You tend to become philosophical about making decisions...knowing that even the mistakes sometimes lead down some fascinating roads that you wouldn`t have normally traveled, but wouldn`t have missed it for the world. We were so hard on ourselves in twi....we come away desperatly afraid of making the wrong choice..... EVERYBODY makes mistakes....most people don`t even think about it....most just pause, take another look at the map and head off in a new direction....the trick for me I have found is to attempt to relax and enjoy the journey instead of sweating out how I am going to arrive at my destination.

Wonder if his *significant other* is dogging him to get Terri outta the way....

Oldies, it is not selfish for a parent to love and care for an ailing child. We don`t *dispose* of them when it becomes personally inconvenient. We love them and fight for them with the very last breath of our bodies and ounce of our strength.... The husband on the otherhand has a common law wife and children and cannot be bothered with this baggage.....

mstar, the ONLY person that has said that this is what Terri *wanted* ....is the very one who wants her dead.....makes ya go hmmmm. Ya got parents syblings friends personal nursing caregivers and doctors... congress a governor a presedent a nation full of people who would love to see her permitted to live...but nooooo one selfish pos has the *power* to institute her death...it sure isn`t right..... His *retoric* that it is what *Terri wanted* is nothing more than a nice catch phrase to make him not look like the money grubbing sleaze he really is. According to caregivers and family, Terri has been consistantly denied the rehabilitation that would have helped by her estranged husband.

Yup he has children with this other woman too....Apparently poor Terry didn`t have the good grace to die in a timely manner. It blows my mind that he is able to sentence her to death when she has a whole family that has fought valiantly for years simply for the privelege to love and care for her. They have doctors and nursing staff that have sworn affidavits stating that she absolutly IS conscious. I suppose old mike is getting tired of waiting for his money. What is wrong with those Fla courts?

I only know that if I had produced a daughter, had loved and reared her.....that to be kept from caring for her by an *estranged* husband.....to be prevented from giving her sustenance and care ...no matter WHAT her mental state would drive me insane. The fact that this a-hole is allowed to keep her parents and her syblings from her bedside as she slowly starves to death is just sickening. I am ashamed to live in a coutry where it is against the law to protect and nurture your daughter or sybling....

Great analogy Shell.

Ironic isn`t it? We are now not even deemed worthey to set foot in the mansion that was built with the stolen material of our lives....but then again, I guess we never WERE what was important...just what we could proide...when that was exhausted...we no longer had any worth.

Not friggin likely.....We were robbed.