rascal

It seems to me that these guys took that which wasn`t theirs by insisting that it was required by God....be it money, power, other mens wives... To me that is as powerful as any weapon. While I could stand up physically to a robber ... or a weapon ... How can you stand against God and fight back when that which was unthinkable was being demanded? How can you contemplate a life in the world of Darkness outside of the protection offered in the protection of being in the center of God`s will. What was required, was not free will giving, or it wouldn`t have had such devistating consequences.

I am permitted to discuss any first person story related here. I don`t need to be qualified for that.....I am ALSO free to discuss how much I despise the rat bastard pig for what he did and for the damage his doctrine inflicted on innocent people in God`s name. What I am not permitted to do is call any person here a liar or try to diminish the impact of their testimony by calling into question the veracity and integrity of their experiences related. Neither are you now that the rules have been clarified.

In the presumed innocent thread, I was asked WHAT crimes I witnessed in twi. I wonder, isn`t extortion a crime? Is it not extortion when one is told that if you don`t give 15 % of your income that God won`t spit in your direction? To not tithe meant that satan had access to your family.... Is it extortion if you are told that you must accept screaming, physical abuse, obey all *suggestions* of another in order to be considered meak and allowed to stay within the boundaries of the hedge of God`s protection.... What about allowing leaders access into our homes, our finances, even our sex lives.....because God required it? Is it extortion when you are told that you must throw your teen aged child out on the streets ..in order to not contaminate the house hold? To not do so means expulsion from the household of God into the darkness where satan can destroy the rest of you family? Is it extortion to be told that if you didn`t complete wow or corpes commitment that you would be a liar, a vow breaker to God and have the example of Annanias and Saphira paraded in front of you?? Is it Extortion to have to chose between the life of your unborn child and God`s ability to protect you? Even if we didn`t experience the drugging and rape personally, or the marriages destroyed and children taken away,did....yes even the death of some of our friends....I think each and everyone of us in some way had something taken from us in God`s name.... What we allowed to be done to us, the outragious abuses we suffered in silence...the crimes we were told not to report.... all because we were told that God required this of us, as far as I am concerned is criminal, whether the perpetrators are ever brought to justice or not.

Yeah potato, like Kristen Skedgil did as a victim of vpw`s criminal behavior. Dove, I have told of my experiences in twi here at Greasespot...I havealso related what programs I participated in....look it up if you are really interested. I have discussed the experiences of others who shared here of crimes the committed against them....that is what we DO here. What happened to us IS criminal whether the perpetrators are ever brought to justice or not :( That is telling *The OTHER side of the story* the one we were never allowed to tell while in twi. That is the stated purpose of this site. It seems as if you personally have waged a non stop campaigne to once again silence the victims.

I don`t believe that weirewille ever led a traditional ministers life. He told us once how he snuck off and married Mrs. when they were in college ...him to be a minister so the their folks wouldn`t know. (edited to say that *rumour s have it*) he was thrown out of his church for an affair with his secretary. There are accounts of him being sneaky and a bit of a bully all the way back to high school. I just don`t think it was ever about being a minister, but about researching sources that would make the scriptures agree with what wierwille thought or wanted. A way of making him *right* Opera Buff, are you serious? Does the giant fore head not give it away?

I know what Jesus said were the two great rules to obey. Love God and love your neighbor. Sounds like faith and practice to me :)

Not at all Dove, It`s just that I don`t use second and third hand opinions of other people to call into question posters veracity or to try to obstruct their testimony as to their personal experiences in twi. Pretty silly to accuse me of not wanting you to post your 2nd and 3rd hand information here at gs, when you have been doing it for years. What you DON`T like is that someone has challenged you on the hypocracy of insisting that there be documentation, and a legal conviction in order for someone to be guilty of a crime, when you yourself have no personal knowledge or experience of what you claim others are lying about. People are assaulted every day, murders go unsolved, that doesn`t mean a crime wasn`t committed. That doesn`t mean it didn`t happen, or the damage inflicted wasn`t real. No, we will never bring these guys to legal justice in THIS world, but one of the things we ARE permitted to do is discuss our experiences, call into question the morals, ethics and beliefs that led these criminals to believe that this was acceptable to do to people. In so doing, maybe begin the healing process and grow beyond the toxic doctrine that empowered them, and kept us enslaved.

I have been reading and commenting on the first hand accounts given of rape, rapes in the corpes and lead accidents for years right here at greasespot, along with relating my own injustices and abuses suffered. That is what gs is here for last I checked....to tell the OTHER side of the story, the one we didn`t get to hear while in twi. Isn`t it silly to be at odds with all of the first hand accounts here based on your second and third hand information?

Great to see you Wacky :)

I assume that YOUR interaction WITH people here at gs where YOU said what your actual experience was in twi was true and factual. I think you are playing word games because you don`tlike being reminded that most of the knowledge that you base your facts on was 2nd and 3rd hand. ...and hows come.... if YOU talk to a person it is *going to a source* but if I talk to a person, it is second hand information that needs documentation?

Dove, I only have your own testimony here at gs to go by. You yourself have written these things here... What the heck more do I need to know about whom ELSE you`ve interacted with when?? Surely it`s all 2nd hand information, and therefor unreliable and lacking in documentation. Everything that you experienced concerning any issues outside of twi in your particular area is hearsay.....second hand information. That hardly puts you in a position to call into question the validity of another`s experiences, nor require documentation to back up anyone elses testimony.

Thanks for the clarification Dooj, I lumped your post in with Haps. Sorry I misread you.

Dove what the hell does it matter WHO you have interacted with? Everything outside of your limited geographic area is information related to you by another person...ie second hand :blink: You have no first hand knowledge of wow, way corpes, staff at root locals...how vp treated people on a regular basis...Face it...YOUR first hand information is limited to your personal experiences in your particular area. Certainly that is not good enough for you to allow in any other posters testimony or experiences. Yet strangely enough it was enough for you to call into question the experiences and honesty of others. How many have you accused outside of the courts of law here at GS through the years without documentation or the proof that you require of others?

Ahhh just FEEL the love he had for all of us....for all of the people whom had invested their hearts and lives into believing what he taught. Bless him for thinking of what was best for the people given him to shepherd....sigh what an example...what a testimony to the effectivness of what he taught is seen in the conduct of his chosen leaders.....whatta guy..

Dove wrote to me...... You have no idea of who I have personally interacted with, and when you have something other someone's testimony then you can speak as to what is a fact ,as facts can be proven. Dove, what I DO know (according to what you yourself have personally posted here) is that anything DOVE writes about twi outside of Doves area in Doves particular state is ALL second and third hand information...and as such unreliable, undocumentable and therefor not to be believed......You personally Dove (according to your statements and the standards that you uphold) are simply unqualified to present an opinion regarding wow way corpes vp lcm treatment of others at the hands of twi leaders etc. because the ONLY thing that YOU personally know about such things is what someone ELSE has told you. Let`s have the same standards that you insist on in others. Mean time I will continue to speak up as to what I have actually experienced in twi, and discuss the experiences of others on this board. The bible talked about and soundly condemned the pharacees, saducees, false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing, adulterers, drunks, lascivious behavior, etc etc...all without the benefit of a legal trial! Imagine that :)

Neither story deleted was third hand Dooj, please give me more credit then that.

No doubt, it could have been handled pt. My question though was an honest one, certainly not intended to stir up trouble.

NowIsee, I know that it has been reported here before, but I heard vpw say in a meeting one time, that the reason that he picked weenie brain was that when he (vp) said jump, Craig never asked how high. The quality that put LCM ahead of the pack was that he was the biggest bu tt kisser. He did it without compunction, thought or question. Old vp liked that, it fed his egho, his illusion that he was all powerful, that everything that proceeded from his mouth was excathedra, that if we would just shut our mouths do as we were told, we would see the blessings of God unfold. I agree, he sabotaged his own ministry, but I don`t think it was on purpose. His feelings were hurt as Craig and the bot stopped kissing his arse, when he began being treated like an old relic, not allowed any say any more, like he was losing his grip, when people were kept away from him, so that he couldn`t complain. Damned right he went to Geere in the end. Geere was the only one still puckering up, willing to feed vp`s monterous ego, treat him like the man of God he deserved to be....Geere placated him and promised to get back at all those bad boys who had killed poor old vp.

W#tkins was the biggest horses arse I met in twi. Doesn`t suprise me a bit that he was a Geere supporter, the hard arsed mf. He was a turd, never offered the advanced classes I needed to go into residence in all of the years I lived in Alabama, and then treated me to my first scream fest for being unprepared and lacking in spiritual ability when it came to entering residence, that and lack of funds, I had been ordered out of the home where I was living and paying no rent, saving every penny, to helping the local bc. You know of course that had my believing been there, God would have seen to it that the classes were there. Big stupid jock standing over and roaring at me who was all of 105 lbs...he seemed to fill the tiny room as he built his momentum. In hind sight he LOVED it...the spittle flying rage...It was terrifying and demeaning. Wouldn`t I just LOVE to meet him today..he`d probably wet himself, like most bullies. The limb was a joke, guys always invited to go fishing and watch football while the women had to sit in meetings all day learning how to better serve their men....this was the teens and singles as well. Did I mention big stupid ex jock wannabee? Maybe that`s why the guy was such a creep. So he went with Geere??? Suprise suprise....seems like it took a certain calibur type of guy to appreciate Chris` *finer* qualities. It tells me all I need to know about Geere and poison he peddles.

My post about what the wow in our group told me happened to her was edited as well Groucho, so it isn`t just you. Apparently that really is the new standard. It is baffling, I wonder is this just true for JT because for he was perceived as a nice guy, or are we no longer able to discuss what we have been told about any twi leader?

I wonder if there in lies the difference in leaders. The ones who did what they had to do because they believed it was right according as we were taught, and the folks who used what we were taught as an excuse to bully, demean, and steal.

I am really torn here. I mean I really really loved the *T`s* ... For many years..they were heroes in my book....but because they were kind to me, because they helped me through an incredibly difficult time....because they allowed me to redeem myself and remain on the wow field, in the corpes program....because they stood by me as a worth while person...Does that mean that I can`t look at what was taught...what was expected...judge the standard that was required as a participant in twi? I am completely torn, I feel like I have been disloyal, if I met either today, I`d probably just hang my head, because I think they tried very hard to be *good*. I just think that even the very good folks could be infected by the very very bad teachings of twi. That even in love, with the best of intentions, do some very damaging things to people :( Maybe my condemnation and anger isn`t so much with them, but with what we/they were taught was necessary for a Godly life style. What was excusable, what was acceptable, what God required etc. Thanks Geisha, it is good to be on the mend :) Thank you RumRunner, you are of course correct.

I know too that after our wow year....neither him nor naomi could be bothered with our wow pinning ceremony. Everyone else marched into the big top to battle hymn of the republic. Their state coordinators proudly standing with them... We just stood alone 8 battle weary exhausted people whom had freely given and suffered harshly a year of their lives....and our state coordinators were too busy playing the newest bot members to apparently care what happened to *their* WOWS. I know, they were busy...it was a bad time for the ministry...they had greater responsibility. Still it sucked being forgotten, feeling insignificant, as we watched the other wows pinned, hugged and congratulated by their state leaders.

Ham I don`t know, it was at least 10 years ago that I went to his meeting. He seemed like the same friendly lovable guy. True story. We got sent to Kansas as wow`s. Excited to meet with our state coordinator.....We eagerly awaited his words of wisdom.....our introduction to the man in spiritual charge of our lives for the year........ His opening greeting to the 12 of us......*Hi...my wife just had a baby ... I haven`t had sex in x number of weeks and BOY am I horny* Course we were all flattered that he thought we were spiritual enough for him to be so candid with us....but now in hind sight, I have to wonder if it wasn`t calculated to gauge our reactions.