rascal

No trick question ex 10th. It is a question with much deeper implications for me.... I gotta figure out where was God in all of this? How COULD God supposedly lead us there if it was too be to the destruction of some? I know that some of you didn`t suffer too badly personally, the thing is ...some folks feel they prospered ....some people were destroyed.... How can we say that it was God who led us there? It then means that the same God guided folks folks their unto their destruction and even death. My question is deeper than simply *was it worth it* to you personally, I am adressing a deeper inquirey of *could there really be a God who gives a damn if, twi and the resulting destruction from affiliation is the result of following where he led??? Did God guide some of us? Can we count on a God who would guide us to twi? Did Satan decieve all of us? Are neither God nor Satan involved we were just plain stupid in our choices in life?

I thought people were for the most part quite pleasant and tried very hard to explain cowgirl.... It would seem that you didn`t really want our answeres to your question after all.

no no NO cowgirl, I am saying that it is necessary and needfull for some to continue....and that it would be incorrect to place others in a box by saying that we are in a rut or not getting over it simply because we contimue in discussion, annalysis, bitching whatever.....

Maybe some of us need to examine WHY we were vulnerable, WHY we put up with the abuse in order to PREVENT future abuse, be it from an ex spouse or a cult.....in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Maybe it is healthy to analyse rather than just shove it in some back compartment. Have you ever seen a person go from one damaging or abusive situation to the next...never aware of what it is that makes them vulnerable in the first place?

I guess that this might be an answere to cowgirls other thread...lol even after 6 years of posting on exway forums, I STILL have a million questions:-)

Cow girl, I think that we are struggling to try to tell you why it is so important to us to be allowed to continue to speak. It has nothing to do with not moving on, or being in a rut.... When you use terms like this, it appears as if there is something wrong or inapropriate with what we are doing. as I have to tell my spouse many times....just cause he doesn`t *get it* does not mean that it is irrelevant or unimportant. Don`t worry about us....lol we are doing what we need for reasons that are uniquely important:-)

Speaking of the wonderfull love of the leaves...I wonder, was the love that we gave, the bible that I struggled to learn and teach, the people that I brought to fellowship....was what they recieved in those early fellowships that we enjoyed worth what was to befall them later? Did We really do any favors for anyone by being kind and behaving with integrety, teaching scripture if in doing so, we lent an illusion of legitimacy to evil? Were people disarmed by our love? Were they seduced into evil by the scripture that we taught? Were we evil for being the camoflage for the snare? If we unkowingly do the works of evil, are we evil? Where did God`s presence start? At what point did it end? If there is a God ....why didn`t he protect us when we were only trying to do his will? Did what we learn really bring us closer to God or has the overall experience confused us to the point that we no longer know who or what to trust?

Cowgirl, I guess I`d have to say that I think it is presumptuous for one to feel that because we post on greasespot, that we haven`t moved on with our lives :-(

Thanks learned2late, I remeber the love, the wonderfull *leaves* as well.....that is part of the pain and puzzle..... I genuinely am trying to sort all of this out.....and honestly...not trying to be contentuous....but can you tell me.....going along the lines of what you described....when you were going through those really tough times ....if you had to look your brother or sister in the eye who had been devistated ....could you? Could you say *gee I am sorry for you suffering but I need what I got from this man/ministry*? This is the question that I have to keep asking myself..... I mean was what we recieved really worth what our brother or sister lost? How could God lead some there to learn and some there to be destroyed? Couldn`t God have cared enough to only lead those who would have benefited from association with twi if he wanted us there at all? Why did he care about some of us and not others?

Yeah cowgirl, but maybe you thinking that we are in a rut might just mean that you are not uderstanding what is going on.....no problem, seriously. You might consider that just becasue you think that folks should move on, or that is what you have done and is best for you personally....it certainly does not necessarily make it the right thing for someone else to do. Seems like you are trying to put your shoe (what works for you) on someone elses foot that it may not fit. It doesn`t always work....know what I mean? Your shoe might hurt my foot, and for you to be mad at me for not wanting to wear your shoe, is kind of silly.

Sigh....every once in a while someone will ask this question....I have to wonder why it would matter to anyone else what I wanted to say or how many different ways I needed to say it... An honest answere to your question would be that you may not understand or accept what others talk about as beneficial to you personally, however your personal preferance in noway eliminates the merits of what is said for others..... One cannot fit all of us in a mold of when enough is enough....and if I enjoy it.... shoot, I will continue to bitch for just as long as it suits me.....(after all I was forced to shut up for over 15 years).....now it is MY turn :-) so no...I don`t believe for one miniute it holds me back....if it is redundant to you.... just skip over my posts...lol

I don`t know oldies, it sounds like what you are saying is that what others suffered is somehow acceptable ....that somehow it was ok with God because some good came to some people out of an individual group. My question is....could it (or any group) really be *good* or *Godly* if it was destroying people simultaniously while you were enjoying your percieved benefits? Did God really want us there in harms way? Why WHY would God lead some people to twi (or any group) to be blessed and the same God lead some people there to have their lives destroyed? Did God only lead some of us there? Who led the rest of us who were used and hurt? Did Satan lead us there to decieve, to steal and to destroy?

Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi? Were the benefits that we recieved from pfal valuable enough to make the suffering that was endured by some of us an acceptable price to pay? Are we really sure that twi was even of Godly origins with so much devistation wrought? If we lable twi and vp as *good* on the basis that we were introduced to scripture....is twi or vp really any better than Jim Jones ...David Koresch ...Sun young moon (sp) or any other religious nut who utilizes scripture to co opt people in God`s name for the sating of their own lusts???? Can we really even trust anything that we learned from vpw as *good* when we know that while he was supposedly *blessing us with the word* behind the scenes, he routinely was seducing and destroying other members of the body? Was vp once a *good man who went bad* and worthey of our pity and forgivness, or rather a *wolf in sheeps clothing seeking whom he may devour* worthey only of our deepest disgust? Could God have really wanted us there at all?

Toad friend is the one who picked up her marbles and went home because she couldn`t tolerate meaningfull discussion...... If you don`t like this party, you could always start a new thread for a *love fest* for ol vp, lol....No doubt there are plenty of vp lovers that are willing to participate.

Come on now, VP usually reserved the privelege of *dropping one`s pants* exclusivly for our poor sisters. For guys it usually held a more figurative meaning, but could still be considered quite destructive as well....then again I suppose there were those rare individuals of either sex that claim to have actually *liked* being screwed. Hey as long as somebody had the pleasure of association with ole vp`s ministry...that makes the devistaion all worth while....no?

hee hee ...oops

Dunno, like bin laden, vp utilized the authority of God and scriptures to justify his vile deeds. He destroyed many innocent people without compunction .....seems like they have mighty similar charactar flaws to me. So yeah, I can and DO lay that and worse at his feet.... Toad friend we ARE talking, we simply aren`t saying what you want us to say.....that`s no reason to go back into lurking :-(

Have you really tried this mzimagine? I actually did a few months ago and was thoroughly rebuffed. I had not seen this man (who was part of our wedding party and had not seen in over 15 years since the birth of our first of seven kiddoes) He wouldn`t even allow us to have some lunch together. This particular innie didn`t want love or anything else from anybody outside of twi. To accept affection or companionship from a tripped out person would no doubt put him in mortal spiritual danger....sigh. Who knows though, maybe it will lay the foundation for future contact if they ever escape.

No doubt toad friend no doubt.....but that statement would also apply to David koresh, Jim Jones, Timothy Mcvay, Osama B, Sadam ....you name ANY villian throughout the anals of history and you could appropriatly say....*yeah but they weren`t ALL bad* I`d have to say that vp was plenty bad enough and DOESN`T deserve any respect as a decent human being, not anymore than any other evil doer you care to name. He was about as viscious as they come.

Oh and btw...lol, I never get tired of beating THIS particular dead horse....as long as there are people who have any iota of respect left for an individual who was directly responsible for so much pain and devistation.

I would have to protect the world from my children then :-( I would be ashamed.

What would I want people to remember about this man???? I`d say that he was loved, respected and unselfishly supported..... He viley betrayed the trust given :-(

As far as what *I* personally think about him ... I understand that he and Mrs snuck off to get married while they were supposed to be in college....didn`t tell anyone for a year. That doesn`t seem very honest or forthright to their parents. I talked to someone in chat one night who`s Mom had gone to school with him, and said that old vick was a real hell raiser back then. According to locals, he was kicked outta his church for fooling around with his secretary. He took his family and left his infant behind for a mission trip to India...I don`t think that says much for him as a parent. His wife was reported by one greasespotter as saying immediatly after his funeral that *he was a mean, mean man*. Add the allegations of sexual misconduct, his alcohol abuse, his notorious tempertantrums, his lack of judgement in chosing his successor... I guess that I just don`t think very highly of him.....a wolf in sheep`s clothing comes to mind.

I`d say that the only way to determine who/what vpw really was is to examine and do a *fruit* comparison to determine whether he was a man of the spirit or a man of the flesh.

Brace yourself cm.... I have SEVEN children....lol. Is it any wonder that I value peace? I just wonder if God sighs with exasperation over our bickering over doctrinal/denominational matters.. almost like kids arguing over who Daddy loves best.... I gotta say that when one of the kiddoes puts aside the argument and instead if trying to change their sybling.... deciding to just apreciate and love them.....I am always gratefull for the greater maturity shown rather than the kid wearing their sybling out to prove themselves right.... Does this make any sense?