rascal

Dove, comparing an entertaining childs tale with child molestation is sick and just plain wrong.... I`ll tell you this my friend... RK Rowling and her entertaining tales of wizards haven`t done nearly the spiritual harm, or caused the enormous pain in this world than those claiming to know and teach the scriptures, claiming to represent God`s will, the people who were supposedly representing God almighty by teaching the *truth* in twi. Far as I can tell, it is more the oh so rightious Christians of twi that have blackend the eye of God and led people away into the spiritual darkness. It is the deception perpetrated by those we knew who rightiously beat their chest claiming to be God`s representatives that have caused the enormous damage in folks lives....as far as I can tell...rk`s stories have never inspired anyone to intimidate, seduce and rape, extort, molest.....all of which our christian representatives in twi were guilty of indulging in and promoting........ How can you be so offended with someone who`s stories have inspired million of children to learn to love to read.... Knowing what we are guilty of, the harm perpetrated by those we enabled, supported and vigorously lives promoted to unsuspecting victims....we of all people have no business pointing our collective fingers of judgement at ANYONE else. My God, as I see it, it is the people claiming to speak for God that have done the MOST to destroy peoples lives and rob them of their faith. VIGILANCE ????? Come ON......darkness actually flourished on our watch.....in spite of our honorable intentions.....and for any of us to have the nerve to condemn another person .....whew, seems to be hypocracy at it`s worst. Dove, I have a lot of respect for you, but I am deeply offended that you would accuse me of allowing and promoting something akin to child molestation.

Thankyou Dove, I understand and respect your concerns truly, as they were once my own. Out of curiosity though, do you have a problem with the fairy tales that we were exposed to when we grew up? Dragons, witches, monsters and magic, children have been reading and enjoying these tales long before rowling wrote her stories...... How is Harry Potter any more dangerous than Grimm`s fairy tales or hans christian anderson that children have been reading for generations. How are the witches any more sinister than in snow white or Hansel and Gretal?....or the magic utilized by the fairies in sleeping beauty or cinderella any different than the magic preformed at hogwarts? the possession involved in the pied piper any more alarming, than the mythical characters in RK Rowlings stories? None of these monsters or goblins, witches or fairies tempted us to seek satan as children ...I tend to think that our children will weather the fantasies of their childhood as well.

Thanks Fish, I think that this is why the abuse of people through scripture and spiritual *authority* is such an dispicable thing. It gives God a HUGE credibility problem when he above all things is the one that we should feel safe trusting. People feel like we oughtta be pleased to have learned scripture....but what the hell good did it do if we do not feel that we can safely trust the author?

Different strokes dove, different strokes my friend..... Jesus Christ will no doubt come back whether I read Harry Potter or not, and whether I enjoy a good story or not will in all probability not determine the time of his arrival or my reception one way or another.... and lastly, yes, I was one of those fools who drove 80 miles one way from our north woods camp site to be at the nearest book store in Marquette with the kiddoes and my nieces and sister in law at midnight to recieve our copy....we read aloud by flashlight the almost two hour trip back and had an over all FINE evening :-) The kiddoes have read all 6 books and have in the last 4 years niether attempted to borrow my broom to fly, to cast any spells or brew any potions.... They know that it is pure fun ... to be taken no more seriously than star wars or lord of the rings, batman or super man :-)

Ummm have you read any of the books dove? That might explain why you wouldn`t see the attraction ;-) Lol, I was of the EXACT same opinion a few years back when some folks made some very astute points on a raging thread back on waydale. I decided to proof read the books before allowing the kiddoes to be exposed to such spiritual trash...lol who`d a thunk that I`d a become an even more avid fan than the kiddoes:-)

Dear herbal, I of course will be there....I will assist in any way possible.... Would a change of location make it more acessible or interesting for more people? Fall Creek Falls was wonderfull, and there ar many more interesting places to visit. I here Dakota State park is fabulous....we had a great time in Helen Ga. this spring.... The Okoee river area on the otherside of Chattanooga is breathtaking. Any of you other greasespotters have any recomendations??? Geeze oak, I would love to see you and meet Riekilady....... Depending on who is coming and whetheranyone else is bringing kiddoes, i might even leave my kiddoes at home this year.

well.....just because folks were decieved into believing that it was their rsponsibility or somehow acceptable....doesn`t mean that they couldn`t ever be known as decent and nice in other settings as well wg... It is just one step further in the deception that most of us all fell victim to. We all had leaders that treated us well in twi ....whom we find out treated others brutally Mr. Hamm is right...some really nice nice people turned into monsters later on.

Snape still being loyal....hmmm Do you suppose Dumbledor HAD to die for some reason? That this was part of a calculated plan? I mean, what was the point of freezing Harry anyway? Did it have something to do with his growing weakness and slowness....was he some how damaged beyond fixing when he got that blackened hand? Did he ever give the promised details of how he got the ring??? Somehow, I cannot see Dumbledor sacrificed so senslessly.....

You guys gotta hurry up n finish it cause I am bursting to talk about it....all I can say is .... wow. Ok, fess up did anybody besides me cry?

I can`t say for sure ex, as I don`t participate in any. I think that the degree of value of each different one varies greatly..... I know perfectly wonderfull people who enjoy fellowshipping with their splinter group....I have met wonderfull people who within a year of association with a splinter group that have become arrogant, condescending, and rude.... I know one fellow who`s marriage was destroyed by the wifes fierce adherance to the dictates of an off shoot. I know people who have been treated even worse in the off shoots than they EVER were in twi.... I tend to think that when involved with a group as toxic as twi was..... it is wise to reevalute each and every so called truth.... If you are around folks who still think the same, believe the same/speak the same language with only minor variations....it is very difficult to recognise and distinguish the healthy belief/thought practices from the dangerous. I used to fervently wish there was an off shoot to fellowship with in our area when we left....I pined for the old fellowship and comeradery I enjoyed in twi....the feeling of unity, I felt lost without the support of people who understood and believed as I did.... I think now though, that if I had, I would have been comfortable....enjoyed it....but I do not know if I ever would have pierced through the fog of my way brain......I would have still thought I was right...that I didn`t need to make any changes....I would have been trying and failing to make the same silly formulas and principles work that had failed for the LAST 15 years....rather than being able to honestly evaluate my mindset and belief system. I think it can be tougher to heal.

Folds laundry??? Oh HE LL no....lol He washes and folds his own because I didn`t get it done fast enough or well enoug to suit him...lol many times it would get lost in the shoulder high piles of the rest of the families laundry awaiting attention for sometimes for WEEKS! You see, the poor guy has his own whole set of *issues* to deal with in his spouse...hee hee....for you see, in addition to being domestically *challenged*, I have the propensity to adopt every hard luck, abuse case, stray that wanders across my path...be it feline, equine, canine.....(yes even bovine) I allow the kids all have hamsters, guinie pigs, turtles, fish, geckos....(can you tell lol, that my mother didn`t allow me to have pets as a child?) Bless his heart he seems to take issue with the animal feed and vet bills at times rivaling the grocery and kids doctor bills some months. He tends to be put off at the very idea of dodging horse and dog piles to get to his car each morning....poor fellow :-) and RATHER than apreciate the fact that I have effectivly eliminated the chore and he has no lawn to mow.... he is irritated beyond measure with the horses grazing the yard down to rocks....sigh no gratitude.... Lol, you are right though....I consider myself a blessed woman, in spite of our communication *issues*

My spouse has been a real problem when it comes to me talking about something he doesn`t want to deal with........(if we don`t talk .. he can pretend that everything is ok and he doesn`t have to deal with anything unpleasant....everything in his world is hunky dorey) He refuses to pull his eyes from the tv or computer screen, tune me out....or maybe just stare at me till I quit talking...refusing to say a word.....he will also walk away from me and say that I talk too much and that he has laundry to fold (so lacking in respect of decency grrr)... anyway, if I persisted he would be just awfull....if I finally DID manage to engage him....he is a master at manipulating the conversation.... accusing me of stuff or misrepresenting my pov till I would be having to defend myself to the point of entirely forgetting what I needed to talk to him about in the first place........it took years for me to catch on to the little game.... My solution ??? I write letters .... lol sometimes 14 pages worth, and send emails...he cannot argue with them, he cannot play verbal games and trip them up...I don`t get emotional or side tracked.... It takes real thought to formulate my pov in this logical and concise manner....I seem to be presenting my thoughts in a manner that he can comprehend .... he seems to understand, he is willing to respect and apreciate my argument ....and he it seems to eliminate the need to feel defensive.....bottom line though is.....it WORKS!!! I know, I know, I shouldn`t have to....but hey, it works....when presented in this form, he carefully considers my argument and 99 percent of the time acknowledges it`s merit, and makes the necessary adjustments........heretofor, it seems like he was so consumed with being *right*.... acting as if he aquiesed ... it meant that it was admitting that I had *won* some how immasculating him in his mind.. I used to resent the hell out of having to modify my aproach to a method that he was willing to accept....you know, it was like learning to how to interact with a damn computer, I had to learn WHICH buttons to push and which to avoid to even engage in dialog.... It seems to me to be so very stupid to have to resort to this....but aparently when I have to carefully think about what is important and make the effort to communicate it in this fashion, he is able to give my thoughts and opinions respect and consideration.... Most figure it isn`t worth the effort... that I probably shouldn`t have to, but if this is what it takes for us to keep our lives running smoothly and in a positive direction....it is a small price to pay.... How does this work into the subject at hand?? Only that as male and female, we communicate very differently, our perceptions differ, and sometimes though it makes no sense to us personally whatsoever, it is what is necessary to reach common ground.... Some of youfolks are more adept at understanding and communicating in a manner that your partner can accept and work with....be they male or female....and can forgive the others lack of skill in communication.

John Juedes sight *messiah 7* (you can find it on the recourse link at the top of the page) It has a LOT of usefull info concerning the offshoots (though some of it is dated) There are also some chilling accounts of abuse endured in other sections....

Mell and Blues, I am not trying to be evasive or vague, what info I have has been from several informative threads concerning geer here at gspot....I think that if you were to do a topic search, you might find them. On them there are several first hand accounts of abuse witnessed or endured at this mans hands....most of it during twi and in Gartmoore.... I have read accounts of folks being treated very harshly at the hands of people who are part of this group.... As I understand it, He is in the u.s. running a group that pays dearly for the *right* to run his version of pfal. I think that he puts out tapes and such....anyway, that is where some of the staunch wierwille fans hang out....

That is a tough one blues, and will have to be answered with carefull consideration. I do not have the time right now to give it full attention...... There are many folks here at gs that are in different stages of recovery. For many, off shoots of twi provide a half way point...you know kind of safe place for a while ... as they regain their bearings. It feels safe to be with people who still believe and think the same as you do.....speak the same language...still tell you that you are the *best* some folks need that ... for some folks it is but a step in their consideration and reevaluation of their beliefs. Who is to say whether it is good or bad, I certainly wouldn`t dismiss their value to some. Some participate in off shoots and it helps them and they are blessed, while some participate and are hurt further (kind of like twi eh?) Each off off shoot is different but usually subscribe to wierwille being a decent guy.....it is not up to me to judge what may or may not be of assistance in the healing of some one elses minds and hearts. I will post more later, as I have to move some horses.....but I leave you with this lol....my husband subscribed to materials from an off shoot for many years...to his horror, I went the rout of eschewing everything twi taught, regarding anything those villains taught as suspicious....lol.....but eventually, believe it or not we ended up on the same page basically concerning our spiritual opinions....different strokes for different folks. More later....

Thanks Vickles, it really boils down to how you wish to view yourself, doesn`t it?? One would much rather see themselves as a mighty athlete, a committed warrior in the spiritual battle, striking blows for God, serving him wholeheartedly for a life time....vs feeling foolish and ashamed for allowing ones self to be manipulated into providing our vitality, our homes, our resources, the energy of our youth youth, and a huge portion of our finances, to support an oppulant lifestyle for a few.... giving them power, luxuries and pretty young women to sate evil appetites. It ain`t pretty, and it certainly isn`t easy to look at.

I want try to explain a little of what your parents will have to face when they consider your pov....maybe it will help you understand their intensity. Consider that they will have to reevaluate EVERY truth that they have ever known....they will for the first time in their lives wonder where God want`s them, is he pleased, will he stop protecting them....where do they tithe and will it be enough to keep satan from destroying them.... They no doubt feel that their stand and prayers are what protects you from your unbelief. They will have to wonder if there really IS a God, why he would allow them to be used and manipulated for their entire adult lives....their youth, their finances all squandered by wicked men who sought to fill their bellies. They will have to come to grips with the facts that while they were recieving the word from men they respected ...these men were raping their sisters in Christ, destroying families at a whim....Is THIS the kind of guy that God would use to make known his word? You then have to reevaluate your entire view of christianity in general.... It is DEVISTATING to find out that you have been wrong about everythong of importance your entire adult life....that your sacrafices, your struggles, the privation you endured, was all for not....... Many would rather find a way to be *safe* find a way to excuse the evil .... so they either dismiss the testimony of those abused, accuse the the those who speak of the wrong as liars..... If per chance one comes to grips with the stark facts.....many times in order to maintain their belief, they attempt to minimalise what occured, maybe claim that it wasn`t that bad, or that those speaking now are complainers, back biters, tale bearers, perpetual victims etc....ysome folks are even angrier with us for speaking up ...than the ones that actually perpetrated the crimes. They have to decide ....were wierwille and his leaders mighty men of God who stumbled occasionally, so we can still safely trust their doctrine....or were they heinous villains who utilized the name of God and scriptures to molest, steal from, and destroy vulnerable souls. Most would rather hold to the safety of their beliefs...the alternative is unthinkable. Anyway, I hope you will be patient with your folks, it isn`t that they WANT to be foolish .... I am sorry for the legth of this post, but thought maybe it would help to understand a little of the intensity of your parents adherance to their belief system. It really isn`t like simply changing a pair of shoes....you know? My friend has a saying....*the BEST revenge, is living life well* I think it would work as well in this instance if you substituted *testimony* for revenge I think that this will speak more convincingly than any words spoken ...

Blue, you asked how I got involved at such a young age.... I was a waitress in an omelette shop .... all of the wows came by to visit and hang out... and I liked them... with the exception of one, they never witnessed to me or wore their name tags...just really nice folks who seem to have found peace. When I finally went to a fellowship...it seemed I already knew and trusted most of them. They offered peace, all of the answeres I needed in life, a noble purpose, a sense of belonging and of feeling needed. Just the ticket for a love starved neglected teen. I took pfal within a month of meeting these guys, that week, I turned 18 and graduated from high school as well. When the wow that was undershepherding me died during the pfal class I was in (I saw the wreck) it was my first experience with death...... they told me that it was Satan trying to steal the word...so I got ****** off and decided that I would be even fiercer in my commitment I channeled my grief into learning to kick spiritual bu tt to pat him back for hurting my friend...I was on the wow field two months later....it led to ten years of unstinting service and participation in any programs that leadership deemed advisable for me....I wanted to be of service and blessing to God and people, so I did everything...I think that is your parents, blue, they really just wanted to be honorable decent people that know of only one way to do it. Too damn bad twi railroaded them into a life of bondage, by capitalising on this honorable desire:-( The thing is like your parents probably, ... I spent 10 years there... involved exclusively with twi....I formed all of my opinions on life and spirituality...... how God works ....... what he expects of me..... My whole perception of everything in existance and my part in it was dictated exclusivly by twi teachings....it never ever dawned on me that twi could have been wrong or didn`t have our best interests at heart. As a matter of fact after we left, for many years, my husband and I continued to subscribe exclusively to twi dogma....we raised our children in much the same way that you described.... They were little automatons with no freedom of will, no Santa, no easter bunny, no disney films, no tv.... no non christian friends...we believed that in denying them access to these materials and influences, we were protecting them......any attempts at individual thought or consideration were quickly squashed. They were to obey first time, every time, or face the rod, you know....we were told that we were teaching them to obey God first....we believed that if we didn`t follow this that the children would not survive the spiritual battle. I am glad that you are so forgiving of your parents dear Bluzie, We tried, even when we screwed up, we thought we were doing what was the very best for you children. Fortunatly, after about 5 or 6 years, we began to recover in our thinking, started paying more attention to our parenting instincts....our last three children are raised in a much different environment than the first four in their early years. Fortunatly my children are very loving and forgiving of our fooplishness...I try to be brutally honest concerning my falicies in hopes that they will learn from me....s. I can only hope that they will recover from any inadvertant burdens and baggage that we have placed on their shoulders. I tend to be a bit more indulgent now....maybe to make up for the years that they went without.... One year when the kiddoes were young, the minister asked the kids what they were getting from santa....n in the next breath threatened em with *if you aren`t good, santa won`t bring you any presents* I went home in a rage... I told my spouse that I was going shopping and my kids were having a great christmas cause I wasn`t going to have them believing that they were some how bad....they hadn`t been good enough to get anything....my spouse disaproved, but kept his mouth shut....and we have had santa visit every since....lol My kids now enjoy their poke mon cards (very evil as they purportedly teach operation of devil spirits)...computer games, they watch star wars..... we buy disney videos...they are in karate, in spite of the danger of succumbing to eastern religions ....and worst of all ...ulp ... they read HARRY POTTER!!! Your parents respect of Chris Geer is very unsetteling as he was reported to be one of the meanest m.f.`ers in twi. He was cruel, he (reportedly by several) played a major part in securing and drugging if necessary young (in some cases still in their teens) girls for vp`s use. He runs a group of people who believe all of what vp taught. They believe vp was a great prophet and they are very intollerant of anyone who doesn`t subscribe to their ideas and methods....it is twi at it`s very most controlling and manipulating worse according to some I have spoken to. There are several groups like them out there though....you can subscribe to tapes or news letters.... I am sorry, but they sound like they have found a nice little way to keep their world intact...it is how things make sense...

Lol (((dmiller))) I was funning with you too....I have been caught so many times in embarASSing positions.... Everybody needing go potty and no bathroom in sight? Everyone sneaks behind a tree....when *I* go, lol a troop of hikers show up from the OTHER direction laughing and pointing.... Skinny dipped for an hour at our remote cabin one time....only to spot an old man (who wasn`t supposed to be at the lake that weekend on his porch with th ole binocs.....seems like every time I have bared my hiney, I get *caught* one way or another...hee hee stuff like that....meaning that this stuff happened SO many times...lol my *believing* is to the point that it being caught and shamed is inevitable... Please don`t say mea culpa, I didn`t mean to sound like I was critisizing you....just being silly :-)

Oh, and there are several folks here that were raised in twi, I got involved when I was 17....still pretty young.

Welcome Welcome!! I think you little guys who had to endure the way lifestyle of your parents were the worst treated of all. I am so glad that you were able to think for yourself when you grew up, many are so beaten down that they never do. As for your parents, consider this, if you push the belief issue, they might sever contact.... It is very sad, but if they come to the conclusion that you are *posessed* which they probably will, if you don`t pretend to accept the way doctrine...... you will be viewed as a danger. It sounds like by the renewed interest....they may have found a splinter group to fellowship with....some of them are as nasty and destructive than twi was.... You have to understand...if they consider any other doctrine, they will have to come to grips with the fact that they have been wrong their entire adult lives, they have been used and thrown away like so much garbage. It is a bitter pill to swallow the truth that your entire adult life, all of your decisions, all of the sacrafices were for nothing.....that rather than being a mighty athlete for God as we supposed, we were filling evil mens bellies, making them rich and gicing them power beyond reason over our lives. It is a shame filled, embarrassing thing to have to face.... Much easier by far to make excuses for the ministry and their doctrines failure....if you get enough folks around agreeing with you....one can crawl back into the safety of the little box that they exist in....where they have all of the answeres and their little world makes sense. It is your choice, you will need to draw some firm lines in the sand at the very least, especially when your children come along. I might consider giving them this web addy and and ask them to help answere some questions that have arrisen in your mind.... kind of like you are considering their words, but are confused....that keeps you safe.

DMiller, trust me in this........it was recieve first and THEN believe ....sigh

Wacky, you know I am nuts about you....but I have to say that my spouse and I would strongly disagree with your statement about not waiting for the kids to grow up to divorce .... We are looking at this from the pov of children who grew up without the benefit of our fathers in the home..... It was a difficult, heartbreaking child/teen hood.... we both suffered deeply, from the lack of nurture and guidance .... we didn`t have the love or protection that a child should be entitled to.... We endured a very harsh life....real privation many times...due solely to a parent who selfishly decided that their own *fun* was more important than the good of the entire family.... (HELL yeah it`d be more fun to tomcat around with pretty girl friends or drink yourself stupid every night, then to come home and shoulder your responsibilities) Our mothers were consumed with resentment and frustration to the point of being nearly incapacitated, with anger at being left holding the bag....(and who wouldn`t be I ask ya ...... stuck raising 6 and 4 kids that the Dad`s now were too busy with their new girl friends or drinking/gambling buddies to care about, these guys who were out haveing the time of their lives partying, running all over the world having fun and living great adventures?) But hey, they had to do what made THEM happy at the time...(or so my father told me) right?? We both feel the loss keenly enough to do whatEVER it takes to provide our children with the love, support and daily interaction of both parents untill they are adults themselves (and yes that includes treating each other with respect even the times that we intensly dislike what the other does). We both feel that they are young for a very short time, and that in doing our best for them now, it will have a positive impact for the rest of their lives. It is this alone that has kept us together through the tough times... `S funny though, we weather the tough times because of our conviction that it is vital to the kiddoes....and inevitably get stronger, mature, learn to take better care of each other.....even learning to like each other lol.....none of which would happen if we had split evrey time that we decided we were miserable. Again, I am not speaking of abusive situations here..... that is an entirely different scenario. Just one reason (and I think a worthey one) that some of us choose to suck it up and wait untill 50 something to indulge in our personal whims.

That would be a good idea if there were specific graves, but I think that most of the dead were cremated and the ashes scattered.

Lol cowgirl, if that`d been me, I`d a gotten poison ivey all over my nekid self somehow, n for sure soon as I`d a gotten my nekkid bu tt in that stream, a whole troop of folks wouldda come around the bend...dunno, it`s just how things happen for me....