rascal

Yeah, but VPW said so MANY things were *truth*...that were not...In several of his basic premises he has been proven to be absolutely mistaken... He used *truth* like a weapon to enforce his will....he taught others to do likewise... TWI *truth* was used to to justify the sating of their lusts. TWI *truth* was used to enforce implicit obediance, requiring folks to obey and do really awfull things against their will. TWI *Truth* was always scriptural based.....but wasn`t necessarily right or healthy.... Look at what the parents in the child abuse thread were forced to do .... look at the women that were forced to *minister* to the man of God....look at the parents that were forced to abort their unborn children..... ALL of these actions were justified with vpw`s version of the *truth* obediance to preform these actions, no matter HOW repulsive the duty required was secured with scriptures and vp`s version of the truth. Dove, I do not believe what vp taught was the *truth* else so many wouldn`t have been destroyed by it. As a matter of fact, I learned to despise the cruel God of twi and his ceasless demands.....it wasn`t untill I abandoned all preconcieved notions aquired by adhering to twi`s principles, and formulas that I began to apreciate the simplicty and love that God is. Twi`s formulas and principles do not equate with truth.

Cool Beans, GREAT to see you zix! Glad to hear that you are happy.

Quote: That does not mean that he can not be trusted to speak spiritual truths or any other truths for that matter. My point exactly mistrust his actions all you want but those things that he spoke about the Bible :quote Dove, according to scriptures it does.... It is unwise to trust a man who`s fruit manifested gives every indication that he was of the flesh, or to expect him to understand or be able to honestly and accuratly portray spiritual matters. Sure he taught some accurate scripture...BFD... he then turned and used the scripture that he taught to steal that which was not his, to manipulate and bend others to his will, to decieve, and to destroy when displeased..... He used scripture he taught to attempt to justify and cover evil....to excuse himself from having to behave in a manner of good moral character.... He taught his ministers to do likewise. He handled the scriptures decietfully....he betrayed the trust that was placed in him.... His actions give every indication of being a FALSE prophet....a wolf in sheep`s clothing....thats what they DO.....they convince folks that they speak for God, they sound good enough to fool folks, but they are not working for God.....we are forwarned against them. I do not believe a true minister could have so callously crushed and destroyed on a whim...this is not indicative of a Godly person.... No doubt some learned scripture, but so much was contaminated by his *research*....that every bit needs to be re examined... I don`t feel like he did us any favors....I certainly don`t feel like it was worth the price paid....

That is inexcusable ... Georgio, most of us never knew. I am so sorry.

That carefull study dove, would to be read what the fruit of a man of the flesh, verses the fruit of a man of the spirit in galations. You line up vp`s actions of adultery, fornication, lying, hatred, wrath, drunkeness, and see for yourself which side of the fence that lands vp and most of his leaders on. I personally mistrust a man who`s actions give every indication that he is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence.

originally posted by oldiesman: the unrelenting accusatory mean-spirited finger-pointing mindset of some.... You say that like it`s a BAD thing, friend :-) p.s. you left off *continually whining, over exagerating, perpetual victim*

It is my opinion, that the *honey moon* generally lasted as long as you were giving 100 percent. As soon as you wanted to do something other than what was next on the leaders agenda....you were poo poo. I think that probably it stayed nice for a year beause that was generally how long they babied you .... after that it was time to kick bu tt....you needed to start proving your commitment, you spiritual worthiness....ie wow, advanced classes and corpes. If you didn`t do as recomended......no love for YOU!

Agreed, that was the company line anyway ....oldies. What an impressive sounding schpeal to set one up for a lifetime of extortion in God`s name....BRILLIANT!

Belle, the warm fuzzies were gone as far back as 79 ...I can tell you that much.

God could only love you if you were in the current favor of your immediate leadership.....otherwise you were spiritually *suspicious* and unworthey of fellowship with the rest of the body of christ and therefor outside the will and love of God. I only felt love when I was signed up for classes...signed up for programs, bringing a new person to twig....giving something that leaders wanted...be it something physical or my time.... I was only worthey of love when I had something that they wanted. Nice folks....

Yeah, God loves you and so do we as long as you take this class, enroll in that program, subscribe to x amount of tapes and magazines....demonstrate your spiritual worthiness by your unconditional obediance to any designated leader...which obviously equates with loving God... Yeah Boy, I sure miss THOSE days....NOT!

Yup Belle, God loves you BUT!....he requires a..b...c... in order to be permitted to demonstrate his great love for you.... You will not be able to recieve the greatness of his love or blessings unless you FIRST accomplish d...e...f.... I finally got alla way through the alphabet of requirements n realised that it just didn`t work.

Mr. Hamm, I think that it all ties in with an unwillingness to come to grips with the evil nature of twi. I think some are unable to give up the whole *we were special* idea. If you acknowledge and accept the depths of depravity that vpw and his leaders sank...eventually one must come to grips with the fact that we were WRONG! A man of the flesh, one that treated people so vilely cannot possibly be trusted to accuratly portray spiritual truths and issues. It is very humbeling to come to grips with the idea that we were wrong about nearly every single truth and concept we hold dear and have spent our entire adult lives building upon. Far easier to believe that it was a good group, that we did great things for God and the world..... that we were super believers....that the bad was only due to a few people messing up occasionally.... This makes it easier to still feel like we are right.

Uhhh James, the *slam* I was referring to is when you said that my critisizms when directed at twi were including you and me....read that entire post to understand whom I am speaking of please, and how and why I do not identify myself or you as in the same catagory with those I castigate.

Gee Mr. hamm, and THIS could result in your going from one extreme to the other in your opinions and support of twi ??? Go figure.

I suppose we simply will have to disagree. You posted a question asking about our unwillingness to support twi in the same fashion we did 20 years ago. ....I in return attempted to explain why my pov had altered significantly (180 degrees) since leaving and why I could no longer in good conscience continue my former zealous support of that group. Apparently, even as carefully as I have attempted to explain my antipathy towards these criminals and my lack of willingness to *love* or excuse these wolves.....you are still unable understand or apreciate my pov, oh well no problem....but honestly...Did you REALLY even want an answere to your question....was it a genuine query or an oportunity for you to critisize and complain about others who didn`t subscribe to your current set of opinions? Perhaps we are simply all looking at diffferent pieces of the same puzzle, rather than viewing the over all picture. I mean you no disrespect, I understand your pov, as it was once my own. I can however completely disagree with your statement and yet still retain a respect for you personally.

Nope, this in good conscience I will not do. This issue OUGHT to get folks fired up....damn good n mad at the folks who used their position of authority as God`s ministers to instruct parents in cruelty...ministers and leaders who abused children themselves....leaders who moved ministers when discovered to be molesters to new areas....there is PLENTY to be deeply disturbed about here.

Guess you`d have to be the parent of a small child to comprehend the betrayal, and the damage inflicted....it goes so much deeper than the physical pain. I find it heart rending to read about even years after the fact.... I wish that someone had been there to protect those children....I am having avery hard time at the moment not being dissapointed and dissolusioned with a God who stood by while these punishments were being administered in his name.... the justification for the cruelty being backed scripturally. Twi taught us to ignore our basic parenting instincts....I mean I know it happen in the world........a parent standing by while a partner mistreats a child....afraid to do anything to stop it... But these were MINISTERS for Gods sake....they were supposed to be instructing us in how to raise our children in a Godly way :-( We came to believe what they claimed....that they and they alone represented God`s BEST way to do things.....it was a viscious betrayal of trust.

Well yes, but my manners not withstanding....... Having read the heartrending account of a 3 yr old being smacked ceaslessly in front of the mother untill the child was beside himself...bewildered, terrified, in pain, uncomprehending of the reason for the cruelty or why his mom who should have been protecting him didn`t....I find this along with the other stories here of viscious mistreatment of children to be deeply disturbing. To minimalize the horror of the abuse administered to these innocent little ones by posting cute little smileys being hit like it is funny or no big deal, I think is bad form.

I hear ya....and according to way doctrine....there won`t be any then either.... Not for the leaders if twi who have hurt folks.

Oh golly Belle, I`ll bet the store was REALLY impressed with her spirituality...what a testimoney she was for God.....NOT! All she showed folks is that she was a nut job....an embarassment to Christians every where.

That is in pretty bad taste considering the suject matter of this heartbreaking thread :-(

Sorry CW, so do I....I hate them for what they enabled this man to do to you, to your family....

With less than 4000 active adults in twi....what are the odds that this creep will be in YOUR next fellowship? Wafers, wake up, apparently as a convicted child sex offender.... he is STILL *welcome at the way* Unlike those of us whom have been m&a `d for such heinous offenses as not writing a proper loyalty oath letter....or kicking our ailing family members to the curb.......sigh

If he is out all ready...How much *time* did he actually do? Can he be put back in jail for non compliance with Megahns Law? Can twi be held legally responsible if they have knowledge of his whereabaouts and does not report it to the proper authorities or the people with children to whom he has access? No doubt ((((cw))) I am sorry.