rascal

Belle, I think therein lies the reason that I didn`t see very good results to my prayers while in twi. It wasn`t untill I QUIT telling God what to do via claiming those principles, that I began to see a changes in my life .... Now days, it seems as if the blessings and joys precede my ability to even ask.

At what age do you cease being a *kid*? I sure was gullible, I only wanted to be pleasing to God...I trusted the people who claimed that they would show me how.... You think I should have known better at 17 James? How does that make twi any less culpable?

No James, I DIDN`T know any better. I believed what I was taught in twi, I believed that IF I loved God I must become a doulos, I was taught and I believed that IF I wanted to be a doulos, I had to obey leadership implicitly, immediatly.....those demands ranged anywhere from *take this class* to *participate in this program* to *move from your honme state* *join the corpes*, go wow, *abort your child as it is a hindrance to you completing your commitment*... Right or wrong, whether I wanted to or not...GOD himself would honor my heart and commitment....he would work through them to teach me....fail to obey and you immediatly put yourself at risk as being outside of God`s will and he could no longer protect you... The gun held to my head was the threat of the withdrawal of the favor of God and the household from my life.... consequently resulting in my death spiritually and eventually physically. THIS is what I was taught James, by the people who claimed to represent the word and will of God almighty on this earth like it hadn`t been known since the first century....THIS is why I obeyed........I was taught that God required these actions of me and to do any less was a betrayal of him who had given so much and the nministry who taught me God`s word.... I did NOT know any better James....at 17 I naievly trusted the people who said they could lead the way to God :-( This was taught by the folks who claimed that they had ALL the answeres to life and Godliness...and IF I listened ... all questions would be answered, all hurts healed... THAT is why their actions are heinous....they did it to us in *God`s* name. That is why I have done 180 degree change from one extreme to another concerning my support of twi.

Sunises, thankyou, that makes so much sense. I have felt for a long time that God simply couldn`t have condoned what happened to so many in twi simply because his word was being spoken :-( I have deep feelings of betrayal to God that would call us to be there ... some to enjoy the bennies, some only to be hurt, used and in some cases utterly destroyed....all acceptable so long as we could aquire a general working knowledge of him:-( The idea that God called us to be preyed upon in twi ....makes me want to hate him.... If instead, we can place twi/vp in the false prophet catagory working for Satan with a goal of drawing saints away from God...to steal, kill and destroy......it absolves God/christianity of the crimes committed in that name. My next question, if you have the time to answere it, would be......... Having decided that vpw might have been working for darkness....Are we under any compunction to forgive, or give him any of the respect or love that we would normally deem to be due a fellow human/ fallen christian? Is there any reason that we should trust the doctrines taught in twi, considering that they may have been used to draw people away from God....to hurt people, to manipulate, to justify cruelty? Is it all right to hate this man and his ministry? Can we despise him like jesus did the pharacies and money changers?

Wow, thankyou for that information belle..... Can anyone explain why wierwille`s behavior that was condemned in the priests and labled them as false prophets .... does not brand him as a false prophet as well? What did wierwille do differently that would excuse him from this catagory?

You know..despite my aversion to anything twi...lol I like it....I really LIKE it!

Thanks Belle, do you happen to know where in Timothy?

So awesomly cool dear oen. How wonderfull to have our children succeede in spite of our fumbling efforts at raising them...eh? Congratulations dad, you have every right to be very proud of that boy!

Thanks George, ok, so maybe I oughtta have added wolves in sheeps clothing or pharacees. I mean one catagory earned Jesus`s anger and deepest contempt, the other (stumbling bretheren) we were exhorted to forgive... What places vp and twi into either catagory and why? Other than because we loved and supported these guys....so they CAN`T be all that bad.... Isn`t that what any group will say of a given leader? Are we reluctant to view our leaders in this catagory because it would mean that we had been fooled or cannot bear to be wrong?

I think this is vital .... What makes one worthey of the contempt that Jesus had for the pharacees verses being worthey of the love and forgiveness due a fallen brother? It makes a difference to me in deciding whether I am a bitter venom filled back biter ....or a christian, valiantly protecting and warning any unsuspecting folks from the evil of the hidden snares set to entrap the unwarey like proverbs talks about.

I think being able to successfully identify which catagory the leaders of our ministry land in will be extremely important in determining how much credence I am able to give their interpretation of scriptures. I think that if we can successfully identify which catagory these men fall in to, it will help me decide whether I owe these men, what is my responsibility ..... Does God require my appreciation for scriptures learned, my respect, and ultimatly my forgiveness? or rather my utmost contempt and wariness when examining beliefs learned in twi. What do I owe these men?

Gosh, being the parent of multiple children, I can absolutely attest to the difference in children and what is required for each of them to learn to function in this world. You`d never believe that children sired by the same parents....raised in the same home...could result in such different personalities.

What IS a false prophet??...Can anyone tell me definitively what are the qualifications scripturally? I am honestly wondering.... Can anyone explain to me what would excuse vp and lcm from this catagory? Near as I can tell as far as leaders messing up....there are two catagories.... Vp is a brother who occasionally stumbled and as such is worthey of our compassion and forgiveness.... or Vp was a false prophet and as such is to be avoided, absolutely unworthey of trust and is deserving of our contempt. How do you define which catagory some one falls into? What sets vpw apart from the pharacees....Jim Jones, David Koresch, or any other religious tyrant in history that utilized God`s name to secure that which they desired for themselves?

Ok Dove, maybe I could understand if someone were able to explain to me the difference between vpw and a false profit or a wolf in sheep clothing. Why is it he is not considered as such? He won peoples trust and respect by teaching scripture.... He then utilized the trust and respect garnered as his teacher of scriptures to require from us that which was not his to take. He utilized the scriptures to secure our implicit obediance, insisting that it was due to him because of the scriptures... He stole, he decieved, he destroyed .... good hearted people even died....this accomplished all the while using the scriptures HE taught to secure our compliance and as a weapon to enforce his will.... The scriptures he taught were not used to do the will of God but the will of vp, the will of craig, etc. We wouldn`t have obeyed and done the evil required by leadership for any man...but it was presented as God`s will backed by the scriptures they taught. To me this reeks of false prophet...WHO`S will was accomplished? Did God want these children abused? Did God want the teenaged girls seeking healing and deliverance seduced and used? Did God want girls drugged and raped? Did God want families arbitrarily split up? Did God want our unborn childdren killed so that we could honor our commitment to twi? I don`t see God`s will being done, or God or Jesus being glorified. I saw carnage in his name and in his cause. To my way of thinking....either vp was a false prophet and is responsible for the pain caused by his ministry....or God is one cold uncaring son of a b-tch and doesn`t give a damn WHO suffered as long as his name and scripture were mentioned sporadically in between the unconscionable acts of cruelty.

Well...if he has no hands but OUR hands....could it not be both? ok...OK just kidding

I keep wondering when we get to the great gathering and the folks that run up arrogantly expecting to be welcomed and richly rewarded... I wonder if there won`t be more than a few top twi leaders in for a rude awakening when they are told ...... *I knew you not* bu bu but lord didn`t we prophesy in thy name...move the word...run the classes...fill our quota for wow and way corpes ...tithe witness........etc.

I suppose dove...I could accept that if IF I believed what had been taught had been the *truth*. I personally cannot believe that there was much truth...sure a whole lot of scriptures...most of the time twisted torturously to make a point....I think that evidence shows that it what occured was a bastardization of the scriptures and God`s will. I think that the fruit of this ministry bears that theory out...... We did horrible things to satisfy God`s will as it was presented to us enforced by the *truth* we were taught. I think that it sounded like truth....judging from the harm caused ...I don`t believe that it was. But isn`t that what a false prophet does? They teach stuff that sounds close enough to fool folks into believing that he represents God?...(like I said ...it`s gotta be good, gotta be close).....and consequently end up being able to inflict great harm....people accepting the cruelty because they believe that it is God`s will. Isn`t that what happens in Cults? Is not this what happened in twi?

Read carefully the child abuse thread....if that doesn`t convince you of the putrid fruit of twi...nothing will. Factor in the abuse of the women, the forced sex, the forced abortions, the destroying of families.... All of this was accomplished while these creeps were teaching the *truth*. I don`t believe that God has any part of a group that would condone these things....no matter HOW much scripture they teach. Jim Jones spoke scripture... David Koresch spoke scripture... Their ministries ended in death and destruction.... Both groups STILL have folks that speak in support of their ministries.....they were no different than vpw and twi. They used scripture to steal kill and destroy....doesn`t sound like the works of God.

Cool Chef...good for YOU ...standing up to that Mother f-cker.....who the hell was HE to be treating your child that way???? It is a shame that you were kicked outta there. Definatly shows twi had their heads up their bu tts..... Out in the world the other guy is the one who wouldda been prosecuted for assault on a minor.

Agreed Mr. Hamm.....DAMN it....we were told that our children would be *blessed* for our stand on the word.....we entrusted the most precious posession that we had to these bastards....thes a$$ holes who assured us to trust them...they told parents to focus on their training...let the people who knew what was best deal with the children..... and NOW we find out that these pieces of fecies made their lives a living hell. What an enormous betrayal.

..... and I guess THAT statement would be an indication of being particularly addept at continuing to assigne blame to those who suffered at the hands of vpw/twi for the crimes committed against them. You learned well...as that is a formula that has served twi admirably.

No wondering here at all as to why I stayed so long Oldies....I have a perfectly frank and honest answere for why I didn`t leave..... It`s called being DECIEVED!!!!! That is what false prophets ....wolves in sheeps clothing DO oldies, and they are damn good at it too....OTHERWISE they wouldn`t be able to prey on victims in God`s name.....

That not withstanding oldies, we are discusiing the reliability of the opinions of a man who`s actions consisitantly brand him as *of the flesh*. Are his opinions worthey of being deemed *truth* when scripture says that he is not to be trusted?

Ok oldies, but your opinion of my fruit not withstanding......the REST of us are currently discussing the reliability of twi`s version of the *truth* when viewed in the light that it was based on the opinions of a man who`s proclivities lend credence to the theory that he was of the flesh. Scripture declares that one cannot recieve the things of the spirit if you are of the flesh...plain and simple. The destruction committed with the doctrine of vpw as justification, the pain inflicted with the enacting the principles he declared to be truth.... lends strong evidence that it was not of God....therefor not necessarily truth.

Dove, I am sorry, twi teaching something doesn`t make it truth. Math and english are entirely different subjects.... It`s like saying every subject taught in a school or university is as true as the universal principles of math....not so....many subjects taught are nothing more than peoples opinions. Twi dogma is nothing more than vpw`s OPINION of God and scripture....vpw who`s actions brand him as a man of the flesh.