rascal

I suppose that this all ties in with wondering if God was ever there at all...(and if not, where was he?) or are we trying to sanitize our experience, believe that god was there in order to still feel like we weren`t wrong.... How can one thank God for some one or something that was so destructive to another of us? If it was of God, and woprthey of thanks...wouldn`t everyone have benefited?

True Hamm... that is an interseting way of viewing it....if ones devistating experience is what it takes to be used to dismantle a dangerous group.....it could be viewed as necessary.

Maybe I am feeling like there is no shame in being good and damned mad any more. Maybe it is ok to mourn that which was stolen from us....the casualties incurred. I guess for the first time maybe, I am feeling like I don`t HAVE to put a happy face .... see the upside to twi.

Bless his heart, doing that to save us the effort....he gave his eye as well.... I think the price we paid was a hell of lot higher.

Maybe I AM bitter.... I guess that can be one of the effects of betrayal .... guess that I am angry as well...another by product of being at the recieving end of deception. I just cannot believe that the ministry we promoted, supported financially, supported with our prayer, with our back breaking, life engrossing efforts, witnessed to people, enrolled them in classes.....welcomed them into our homes...provided all of the resources to further their outreach.......all in service to and for God....How could it have all ended up being such a blaspheme against what God should have been all about. We paid the tab to have these guys inflicted upon the world. I am ashamed.....they sure couldn`t have done it without us :-(

ex 70s, that is different, I have no problem thanking God v... just not for twi. That is what I am referring to.

I think of us....all of us all over the country, in our cozy little fellowships...feeling all warm and fuzzie ...singing our little songs.....meanwhile at rome city little Lindys and Georgios are having the stew beat out of them ... I think of how we are all talking after an exciting evening of hearing vp teaching hot bible ....meanwhile... back at the bus the driver is slipping a mickey to some sweet little wow to make it a little easier for her to *minister* to the teacher...... I am thinking of the respect that we gave our bc`s lc`s, who would issue such sound spiritual advice over the phone to us for our enrichment....after we hang up the phone and attempt to enact the sage advice given concerning our family.....he turns around to visciously beat the fire outta the wife because she inadvertantly ****** him off.... I am thinking of the branch and limb meetings where we were rejoicing to hear the *word* taught...believing our children safely esconced in childrens fellowship with a known pedophile. I am thinking of the children...littl children......their pain and tears wondering where Mom and Dad were...why they are alone in their misery forced to endure the horror of sexual assault ...while we were in the next room...in humble prayer...eagerly participating in manifestations...thrilled to be hearing from God..... It is hard to hear folks gratefull.... thanking God for twi ...it makes one wonder if God was in twi and so worthey of folks thanks and praise....where in the HELL was God for the ones who`s lives were being destroyed while seeking answeres in twi :-(

How can God be thanked for a ministry that destroyed peoples lives? I guess that we praise him or curse him according to which side of the podium we were on when the man of God was quoting the scriptures. If we were seated safely in the audience, we tend to think these scriptures taught were the greatest thing since sliced bread. If we were trapped in the motor coach or bedroom the unwilling focus of the mog`s attention, the scriptures were utilized to ensure compliance, weapons leveled at our head to ensure silence. To those of us seeking freedome from oppressive leaders, abusive spouses, rest from exhaustive required ministry involvement....the scriptures taught were the bars of the cage used to imprison us to someone elses will, other than our own :-( The scriptures as taught, required our money to be given to and squandered by twi, our lives ....from where we lived, to who we lived with, whether we had children, all personal decisions were dictated by leaders good or bad.... Even if a person enjoyed their involvement in twi....How can one thank God once you are aware that while you were having fun....these people you are thanking God for were so callously abusing and betraying the trust .... It is hard for those betrayed to hear someone thanking God for a mans life or ministry that were directly responsible for so much of a persons personal pain. Could God really be responsible does he really deserve praise for such devistation wrought in his name?

Ok JWBM, you seem to feel that you got something of value with your association with twi,..... gosh but at the very same time.....a brother or sister seeking God was used and destroyed by the same organization..... I guess that I just don`t understand being able to thank God for twi, while others simultaniously endured devistation at the hands of one of the the most viscious group ever to crack a bible I can`t fathom why God called some folks to twi to be blessed and born again and some required to endure the most viscious treatment in their lives for God....the justification for the brutality being backed by scripture........ Geeze Were we not all seeking God? Were not all worthey of *blessings*? :-( Guess that kind of taints the whole bible research fellowship thing for me....Seeing as twi proved that you can make scripture agree with just about anything the researcher wants to justify. Good thing for me that God appears able and quite willing to work outside of the avenues employed by twi to make himself known....else many of us would never trust him again. My whole point was, not to slam cff, ( I think the guys who run it are good folks) but to give thought that meaningfull christian fellowship can be found outside of the boundaries of the bible fellowship that we know. There is a whole world of exciting options out there that folks may or may not be are aware of when departing twi.

Cool Beans, in that case...I haven`t the foggiest idea :-)

Oops, THANKYOU act2 I reread that and you are right. How was class tonight? I just got back from karate in nearly 100 degree heat :-( Moony, I was first witnessed to by wows in Huntsville ala. in 1979. Guess you were long gone by then.

*If it works don`t fix it*??? ..... And if it DOESN`T work? My opinions were offered as suggestions that many have found led to meaningfull activities and honest friendships.... Education, civic groups and volunteering shouldn`t be viewed as a threat to biblical fellowship.

How are women and children treated in their group? Are women valued as much as men as teachers and coordinators, or are they viewed as in twi, only permitted to function as a help meet to produce children and keep the home? Are women allowed to question the men in charge. or are they required to defer to their spouses for answeres? Are children required to sit quietly through long boring fellowships....are their needs taken into consideration? How ANY group treats their women and children would directly influence whether I desired any fellowship with them.

My prior post was intended in NO way against cff, as far as I know, the guys who run it are decent and upstanding.... What the guys underneith THEM are like who would be coordinating the particular area or fellowship in your area....who knows?

Possibly Dove, but maybe someone who has recently left twi is unaware of the potential rewards of fellowshipping outside of the known comfort zone of a biblical fellowship. Sometimes it can be rewarding as well as an excellent opportunity for learning, and healing to fellowship with people who live it in their daily lives, rather than sitting in a meeting where folks are teaching the same old thing we have been hearing for 30 years now.... Sometimes after years of association with twi....we are prone to think that a biblical fellowship is the only place to get this particular little *itch* scratched. I am with Hamm on this one...I have had enough meetings and scripture readings, classes, tapes, mags to last a lifetime....Gosh it isn`t like I don`t know what the bible says, and how it applies to me at this point. Get out of your comfort zone I say....give God a chance to work in a new and exciting way....

Bible fellowship no...but people who are living shining examples of it in their lives...possibly:-)

Don`t know a thing about em Smurff, but if your lonely, how bout taking a class, joining a civic group, donate some time to the humane society... There are a lot of great places to meet and enjoy folks.....folks that will give you a chance to rediscover who you are and who you want to be.... Sometimes this can be beneficial as oposed to hanging around with folks that you are comfortable with simply because you all still speak the same language. Not that I know of anything wrong with cff per say...

See pop turn out differently James? How so?

You bring up a valid point Mr. Hamm....most of us are unaware of how extensive the damage to one`s thought processes is after decades of involvement with twi. It takes a long time to sort out the damaging thought processes, many years to unravel the valid teachings from the corrupted scriptures. Many who now decry others for their lack of respect or adherance to twi dogma simply need the time and distance to step back and review their involvement.... It just takes time....

Well ....may of 79 for me...whats that, 27 years now? Whoah.... 27 years ago at this time I was going wow...leaving home for the first time....heart full of hope and fierce determination to kick bu tt spiritually for God. Would I have done it all again? I dunno, it`s been a hell of a tough life...maybe it has made me a stronger person.....is stronger better than happier? As far as the kids from the spouse I met and married in twi......well 4 of em are now teens...so maybe NOW isn`t the time to ask if I`d wanna deal with THEIR attitudes...lol

Talking about forgetting what you came into the room for, reminded me of my trouble. I miss name things....I will ask the kid to hand me my camera when I really want the tv remote, or the phone when I really mean my keys...tell the kids to load up in the dish washer ..instead of the car...it used to really scare me...but now I simply qualify every statement.... Will you pass the tv remote so I can call your father?....May I have the camera that I write checks out of? Will you bring me the coffeemaker that I switch channels with? Now it is a big joke and we all do it deliberatly... Oh n don`t EVEN get me started on using the right name for a specific child....I have to go through half the list before I can pin the right label on em....

Same here in Tennessee....I have never been passed by on the road when I was stranded....even when I told folks that stopped.....that help was on the way....they offered to go get food and drinks for the children untill our help arrived. Most folks are very courtious about letting people inti traffic.... When I lived in Wichita Kansas, now THAT was an entirely different story....I would be in tears most nights after the rush hour commute....people were blocked on the hiway and beaten for inadvertantly cutting someone off, I knew someone who was beaten for utilization of the middle finger at soemone who cut him off ....usually about once a month you would read about a road rage incident involving a gun.... I though ...DAMN, I never knew that driving was considered a *contact* sport.... Thanks for the reminder of why I love my adopted state :-)

Wow Stayed too long.... those are my questions EXACTLY.... Have you any answeres? Or are we just sol in this world and the next?

Sorry Mr. Hamm, it was a momentary slip. CW, thanks....

Please excathedra?