rascal

((((Skyrider)))) and all of you folks that endured all of that out of a love for God and desire to serve him. I am sorry :(

The difference lies in first hand accounts related here are allowed to be discussed but an account related to you by someone else then becomes 2nd and 3rd hand when you relate it. Waysider, was correct, you had no personal experience to draw on to make the statement that *I was there and there is no comparison* so it wouldn`t necessarily be clear to you what the connection was.

Lightbearers?? People you housed?? Your spouse??? People you sponsored?? Work around root locals?? Been there done all of that as well. I have all of those people and experiences to draw on as well. I don`t think that qualifies as first hand testimony friend, certainly not something that you permit in any others at this web site. I have never discounted your first hand stories of twi. What I call into question is when you use 2nd and 3rd hand accounts to try to discount another`s experiences or testimony that you could have no possible personal knowledge of. That is when I call into question your experience and qualifications to comment outside of your geographic area.

Bolshevik, for me...it was a bible fellowship. I had no idea that it was something that I needed to go to search for information on. Joyful Noise came through with a concert...it seemed like a really fun group of really cool christians. One of the wow`s that was witnessing to me was killed as our pfal class began...for a kid who had not experienced death...it was real easy to buy into the schpeal that Satan wanted to stop the movement of the word. I wanted to strike back...the only way I knew was to cling that much harder to that which he was trying to scare me away from. Yeah niaeve...dumb...but like I said...I was 17 with NO adult guidance. I completely trusted these guys...and saw nothing at the local level to indicate all was not as it should be.

So, is the consensus that the bullies and monsters were created or that the people who became creepy, predisposed to become that way anyway, they just found fertile ground in twi? I mean I used to know what I thought were some really nice folks that decades later ended up becoming other posters worst night mares.

because I discuss what I saw and experienced where I was in different states, under different leaders, while involved in different programs. through different periods spanning a decade in the ministry. Those are the things I personally address as first hand experience. I discuss the experiences of those who have also posted here of their first hand experiences as well. What I don`t do, is use 2nd and 3rd hand stories from outside of my experience to attempt to call into question another`s veracity. I believe there in lies the difference. As far as sp c being held to the same standard?? I believe that we were under scrutiny to preform to an even higher standard, always needing to prove ourselves, always under suspiscion. But come on, that doesn`t mean that we can necessarily understand or speak authoritatively as to what it was like to be an actual participant in the way corpes program, subjected to the treatment that those who actually experienced the brutality and privation of living in residence with these nutso leaders...of having to follow the insane instructions that resulted in some pretty horrendous injuries, and even death. Dove, it isn`t the same

Those that accuse VP of a crime have the burdon of proof to satisfy. It has not been done Period. I disagree Dove, those who were abused by vpw`s don`t owe you or anybody else a damned thing. I personally thank GOD that so many had the guts to tell their stories ...in SPITE of the guys who tried to shut them up with their vile accusations....Now the rest of us are free to recognize who and what VP REALLY was...it`s the first step in healing for many of us.

I was spouse corpes, and I don`t think marrying into the corpes counts as a program participant. The analogy seemed appropriate to me. Were the rest of the wafers represented as the soldiers at the witches castle marching in unison singing?

As far as the comments about ranting day after day about crimes committed.....well there are some here who have had life long impact from what happened in twi....things that can never be fixed...families estranged, children who struggle, childlesness...issues with trust..... Darned tootin we will still talk about it.

It isn`t liable if what we say is true. I have yet to see any of the *consequences* you refer to in ten years of people reporting the abuses that would indicate that the experiences related, the books written, the broadcasts taped, were not factual and truthful. I`ll bet there are a good many of us that wish it all were a lie...that the mistreatment never happened :(

I guess that I don`t understand NOT being offended and talking about the perves in sheep`s clothing. It is unconscionable NOT to shout from the roof tops the crimes of vp and twi....lest people spend the rest of their lives trying to apply the foolishness that we believed was *THE truth* given to a man by God. When people know who and what these guys were, what they did to our brothers and sisters, we are free to begin the healing process, begin growing again as people. Without the truth, we are forever stuck living false teachings and accepting the blame personally for their failure.

Who exactly rants and raves day after day about what they haven`t witnessed? Who accuses others of crimes? The one I see doing that consistantly is the fellow that insists on calling folks here liars without any personal knowledge of the individuals on EITHER side of the issue.

Bottom line, I think that we were all looking for something. It seemed like we learned to morph twi/pfal into whatever an individual needed. Find that need and market the class as the answer. As youngsters with no guidance, we dared hope that this was finally the answer to a life of difficulty. God had finally found us and now everything that the world, our parents, life had done to us was going to be overcome. Peace was promised. Bolshevik, the kids that were brought into twi were treated grievously. I certainly agree with you. I haven`t yet figured out if the youngsters that sought refuge in twi that became your tormentors did so because they were damaged in the first place and never got the help that was needed, or if in following the guidance and teaching, we became warped, cold, and abusive. I don`t know, not everyone turned into a creep, maybe twi was a haven for bullies, for people with personality disorders, bad behavior was explained away with valid sounding, seemingly bible based, God endorsed reasons. I am truly sorry for what you guys endured Bolshevik. It was unconscionable. I just hope that you can understand, not all of us saw or embraced the evil, that the evil of twi was very carefully disguised. If wierwille had jumped out in person and said BOO! Take my class and you will be required to serve in my ministry for the rest of your life, you will face privation, your children will be abused and grow up to hate you, your women expected to serve in any capacity, your money required to support our lavish life styles, you will pick up and move every 3 years you will give up college and career that interferes with your ability to serve....you will be expected to give 15 % of your income the rest of your lives...you will submit to outragious abuse, humbly accept face meltings, have your families divided and destroyed at a leaders wjim....and IF you should ever object or your usefulness exhausted...you will be thrown out...cast away like garbage. He had to be a little more subtle than that. As evil as twi became, as reprehensible as each of our actions were....I hope that you can understand that not everyone, I`d say even most of us started out with the most noble of intentions....some were strong enough going in to maintain their identity and integrity...they paid the price for it. We were deceived pure and simple. The kids paid a heavy toll for that, it is a burden we parents will always carry.

I cannot imagine. The poor guys.....Their story doesn`t get told much here. I know that my husband and I were so oblivious. There are so many things that are now clear in hindsight...sigh I wasn`t taught the teachings...but I now recognize being sounded out...leading questions asked....felt out if you will by a leader when I was married. I was just too naieve to know that was what was what was being hinted to :(

Greasespot is a web site to tell the OTHER side of the story....our stories, the ones that we didn`t get to tell while in twi. If our experiences had been all roses and rainbows, that is what we would talk about, and this place would probably be considered a pro twi site.... As it turnes out many of the experiences related are of mistreatment, manipulation and abuse...so that, imo is what makes this *appear* to be anti twi. To bad twi wasn`t what we believed it to be, vp and his leaders men of good character and morality. We wouldn`t have anything but the warm fuzzy memories to discuss.

True Bol, gangs weren`t an option 30 years ago for many of us. The ones that joined twi wanted to be good people....We were told that they had all of the answers to life and Godliness....that they could teach us how to be pleasing to God... The lonely damaged kids I referred to grew into the disfunctional adults that kept you under control. We were distanced from any whom might provide balance, we allowed these people to form our impressions and beliefs, trusting them to be the christians that would help us find peace, healing, a purpose in life that we had never had in our outside lives. The people that held you under control.... were damaged pure and simple.

That`s IT!! We were so convinced that we were wrong, lacking in believing, possessed, stiff necked, that we must submit, to do xyz to be spiritual...become little cookie cutter believers that wore the same dowdy dresses and hair styles....like bobble headed dolls, mindlessly nodding and grinning foolishly in agreement with whatever outrageous treatment or order proceeded out of the mouth of anybody over you on the food chain. Every time I read of someone else forced to do what I did....I realize that it wasn`t because I was stupid or weak....or that there were a lot of really smart people that were fooled....or that the doctrine I was taught is not necessarily the truth....that others have wondered, that others have had the same questions as I. I think it is about learning to think for yourself again, about reclaiming your identity. Remembering who you really are and what your real passions and talents are. When I began posting 10 years ago...I was a very different person...my beliefs set in stone, my biases and prejudices the very same as when I left twi. I needed to have some input from people that could speak my language, people whom had dared think past twi beliefs and not been struck dead...people like hills brother and groucho who dared call the ministry what it was. I used to be scandalized, but was secretly impressed with their bravery. Excathedra was a huge example to me as well potato. She told her story back when nobody believed what a pig vpw was....and she was villified, because while everyone was willing to believe lcm was a pin head, nobody wanted to face the fact that our mog was not man of God, that we had been wrong about what we based our entire lives on....to have to concider the ominous implications. People like catcup and her sister and Dad who shared of their experiences corroborating the filth and dishonesty of vpw...people like dot who tried to warn people and fix things...only to find out that the filth went all the way to the top...Damn, I know I am going to miss somebody, the stories of being left alone on the lead hitch hike and hurt, suicide etc. Then you have people like Don` who shared and confirmed the very worst of our fears and suspiscions.... Many many here have shared their hearts and lives...each providing a part of the healing and growth for so many of us. Yeah it`s taken ten years...I`m not done....but like potato said, it isn`t about revisiting pain, there really isn`t much of that any more, other than outrage at anothers treatment....it`s about the struggle towards wholeness and healthy thinking for me.

Yeah, it`s really easy today to point fingers decdes later and say...you dumb arse, you should have been smarter, wiser, quit sooner, not allowed it to continue etc. The thing is, by the time that we realized there were problems, we had been conditioned to excuse stuff, to not believe in our perceptions, to ignore that small voice inside that was telling us all was not well. By the time many of us realized that all in twi weren`t as noble in their views....we had made these people our family, we had been told that our *old man* families were conduits for satan...yadda yadda...A lot of us felt that we had nothing but the ministry any more and couldn`t contemplate life without our friends and family. After all, most of our local fellowships were still the same sweet people we had known for years.

I am not a psychiatrist....but I can answer from my pov. It seems like my brain is just a mass of layers (like an onion too much shrek lol) I think that I know what I think, what I believe, why I behave the way I do....but yet when I read a post or shared experience, many times it is like pealing that layer or perception away, only to find a very different perspective undernieth. I long to know why, what made me vunerable, why did I allow the treatment, How could they convince me my family and friends were the enemy, how could they convince me to go against my own conscience, give up my own freedom of will and identity. I need to know these things...I still don`t know if my thought processes are healthy....if my perceptions are accurate... For me, it is about unlearning decades of teachings and behaviors, the basic foundation of my entire young adult life. I am trying to form healthy thought processes, beliefs, perceptions etc. Others don`t need that, for them the endless introspection is monotonous and a waste of time. That is how my spouse is...I don`t think either is wrong, just what a particular individual finds to be helpful.

That is true waysider...we thought that we were getting involved for one reason...they switched it without telling us. I think that this is important to understand, the manipulation that went into tricking us into thinking that we had to obey, that we had to submit, to ignore our feelings, our conscience.... If it had been a few dozen, we might be able to pass it off as sheer stupidity and shortcomings of the individual...but it happened to tens of thousands of us. Many man of us spent decades in twi and then it has taken decades after leaving to try to regain our critical thinking processes.

Yeah George, there is always going to be somone there to exploit the naive or unsuspecting. Part of the question asked was why are we fingerpointing and whining about it now? I think that I am just so offended at what was taken from us in God`s name, what was stolen using scriptures as their justification, what many of us eventually DID under the guise of service to God....it is sickening to me. We allowed indignities that we would never tolerate from any other person....because we were taught that God required this of us. These guys took what they pleased, without compunction. How did we get from idealistic teens on a mission to change the world...to pathetic automatons, being exploited for whatever we had of value?

Thanks folks, what monsters did to us in the name of God, with scriptures to back them up was despicable. One poster described it as *soul rape* I have never forgotten it. They took so much from us. WG, I was hoping that you might post your experience with your son on the *crimes witnessed* thread. What that leader did to you and tried to insist that you do to your poor son was criminal. Thank GOD you were strong...thank God you didn`t listen like so many of us would have done....I truly believed that God required these things of us. How freaking SICK is that?? Now I know, he must have been crying along beside us each time we brokenly complied to treatment or demands made in his name :(

Dove, does it not strike you as ironic that you have pronounced so many of US *guilty* of fabricating? You who claim that our accounts are not factual.....make these accusations without any facts of your own to base this on? If it was only 300 people (and I don`t believe it was...I think there are many more) that got mistreated enough in twi to want to talk about what happened....then as far as I am concerned that was 300 people too many to suffer at the hands of those who offered us healing. Please allow us top discuss our experiences. As far as the way corpes site having a different flavor, could it possibly be because it`s purpose is different? Why not enjoy the commeradary that is offered there, and allow the people here to implement the resources of this site and use it for the purpose for which it was intended?

Todays youth face the same problems today...a lack of love, support and guidance. They don`t have the religious cults as prolific as in our day....but they have their own lures....kids with pure hearts, wanting to find meaning in life....vulnerable to any whom offer them love or acceptance...and there will be people there..... willing to accept and love them....but not really...it is just to get them to where they are dependent and then exploit them. Whether it be drugs, violent partners, and yes, there is even a small cult alive and well in our little town. We were introduced in twi to small fellowships with the most loving people we had ever met....For the first time in our young lives...we had merit...purpose...an identity. How did we get from those sweet fellowships to sexual exploitation, physical abuse, families destroyed??? It is a very interesting thing to me now in hind site. I want to equip my teens and young adults to not be vulnerable.

I think that another reason that so many of us stayed was that after a decade of committing our lives to what we thought was a noble cause....our identities were intertwined with twi. Because we were idealistic, embarked on a mission for God...pure in our efforts and motives....we assumed everyone was. I truly think that there were tens of thousands of well meaning people involved. The percentage of users and abusers, small. I think that the pure motives of the people on the local level was all most ever saw.... When and if someone got close enough to see the evil...according to don`t worry, and others, they were pressured to become involved or were tossed out and declared possessed if they tried to sound an alarm and change. I don`t think any of us knew how truly rotten twi was. or we would have never become involved.