rascal

Thanks Imbus... it went way beyond a freedom of choice issue. Mr. Hamm.. I know several stories as bad and some quite a bit worse for non compliance with leadership. But in every case I am aware of...believers were warned ahead of time to have nothing to do with the person who hadn`t obeyed... That was a death sentance in many of our minds when we were involved in twi.

Mr. Hamm, those were the prices people paid for non conformance.... We knew it...we knew the price to be paid for not obeying.... Those who chose to succumb to the threat...were lauded as the *good* douloses...made to feel special for a while...all the time harboring the secret shame of what one did to recieve the aproval of God, and effusive praise of our leaders, the hearty pats on the back like we had passed some sort of temptation of satan test. It`s like a cold sickness gnawing in the pit of your stomache.

James, sorry that is what comes to mind when I hear of one person claiming that their prayers were effective while the soul next to them is destroyed in spite of their prayers. I really do wonder when some folks come out rejoicing that God saved them...it seems like it is just another way of saying, that God just didn`t care for the others as much that perished. I am sorry thatI offended you....really, these are just some things that I have been musing over the last few years....your post just got to the crux of what MY delema is......I`d like to ask you to forgive me for being tactless please.

Mr. Hamm, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt...I only know that it was the toughest thing that I ever had to force myself to do... I tried to withdraw from the program....like the people you mentioned....I was brought before the lc for a *talk* I tried to follow through with what God required of me as a faithfull servant.... I failed once and was brought back for a more intense talking to...made thorouhly aware of the consequences of breaking a vow to God...thtas when the big guns were brought out. I submitted and allowed that which I found shamefull and abhorrant...not because *I* wanted to, not because ...*I* wanted to be in the corpes anymore....but because twi made damn sure I believed that to do otherwise would result in dire consequences... See this isn`t a *rascal`s mad because....* thread...almost every one of us had to make heartbreaking choices like this because of the pressures applied by twi ... many much worse than mine.... It is about the weapon of God and scriptures being used to enforce compliance.

probably won`t ever catch compassion or understanding either.

you left out #4 Decieved.... We were decieved into believing that what twi required of us was GOD`S will. Our options were always seemed to be between what we wanted and that which God required (as presented by twi)....to dissapoint God meant to endure destruction and the death of yourself and or loved ones. Not much free will choice there.

Mr.Hamm, I am so sorry for what that couple endured for making the decision to have that baby instead of destroy it at leaderships demand........it is unconscionable what twi put them through for making that choice.... BUT...hear this...as devistating as the ministry made their lives....as harshly as they were punished.....just as SOON as that baby was born...trust me, that family knew that they made the right decision...and further more...every day that they have that child to love and nurture, they have it confirmed again and again, day after day.....that they made the right choice.

Oldies the weapon utilized was the threatened consequences to be endured if we departed from twi, or for non compliance with leaders orders, or not finishing a program. The threats were issued as edicts from God....far more intimidating for me than any physical harm.

They changed the rules oldies.

As a side note...it`s really strange how a fetus was viewed as *not alive* because it hadn`t had it`s *first breath* while CANCER on the other hand, was viewed as having a *life of it`s own* and therefor viewed as evil.... Fetus not alive, cancer alive...go figure

Thanks (((Mr. Hamm))).... we ALL have reason to feel deeply betrayed ... May God forgive me for what I did in his name ....for I cannot imagine that He is pleased that in order to honor my vow, I destroyed a baby.......

This one was used on me after I fled my first *appointment* for the procedure The fetus was also deemed a *not alive* *parasite* Scriptures about breaking vows and how it wsn`t really alive ... were utilized... The second time they carried me to my appointment, I succeded in *renewing my mind* (ie switching off my conscience) and completed the procedure.....of course, I was then treated like a little hero for putting God first.

I have read about the same pressures being applied to prevent a teenager from reporting a rape perpetrated by a fellow twig member that her tc insisted she give a ride home to. I know of the same pressures being applied to a parent to disown ... m&a a *possessed* daughter...Oh, her crime? At 17 she refused to *put out* for vp during his visit on the wow field...not that her family knew....for they had been told by vp himself that she was posessed and a liar...and not to listen to a thing she said (How`s THAT for the the conduct of vp in the good ol days?) We also read how cw had these same pressures applied to her and her family in order to prevent her from turning in two child molesters... Actual physical gun? No...as dangerous and intimidating....yeah

That is what happened to me Mr. Hamm, I wish to God I had had the strength and fortitude of your friends to brave the displeasure and consequences of breaking a vow and dissapointmenting God ... I was told I that I must abort a wanted child or become a stenche in the nostrils of God. I could give you scripture after damned scripture utilized to enforce their *recomendation* as a directive from God. The lc even made the friggin appointment for me and would have PAID for it if I hadn`t been able to come up with the 500 bucks :-( I know not one but TWO different women who were required to abort their children as well because they were in the corpes program for the very reasons I listed.....the really tragic part is, that they were never able to concieve after that and have had to endure the heartbreak of being forever childless from damage incurred in the procedure.

It was irrevocable oldies...once you broke your vow...you were deemed untrustworthey and spiritually suspicious. The door WAS open as long as you didn`t mind putting ALL of your loved ones in mortal peril, being deemed a vow breaker and spiritually suspicious.... Do you know that the lc would keep track of you and warn the twiggies not to trust you or have any contact? Do you know that if you tried to leave the area....they would call ahead and forwarn the lc and consequently any believers in the new area of your spiritual suspicion....never telling them why....just that you were deemed *dangerous*? Then as cowgirl related, any death, any misfortune that befell you, was your personal responsibility.

Wow Goey, that is BRILLIANT! I guess we need to have something to point the finger of blame at...be it lack of believing, mans collective sins, driving suv`s or dissapearing rain forrests, or satan himself.

Oldies, did you read what cowgirl was told by was the consequences of her departing the way corpes by the country coordinator?? The door was open if you didn`t mind breaking fellowship with God because you had broken your vow to him. Then you were showed all of the horrible consequences reaped by people biblically and also provided examples with in the ministry of death and destruction following the breaking of commitment. The door was open if you did not mind being DIRECTLY responsible for the death of a loved one, or being cut off spiritually from the protection of God, or in some cases being required to forego fellowship with the body of christ. What freedom!

Twi was a place of bondage....the bars of our prison being the dire threats and warnings of the consequences to be endured if we did not comply with the directives. No, not every leader, not every are was like this...whicjh is why we have such a variety of opinions amnd experiences. But the deeper our involvment, the greater our commitment, it brought us closer in our contact with the leaders in charge of twi at hq and the campuses....the more controlling and unpleasant things became. I think there in lies much of what was sinister about twi. We did that which we found personally abhorant, even destructive, not because WE wanted too, not because it was a good idea in leaderships opinion....but because twi taught us that it was God`s necessity....and to do anything less would result in personal calamity. It is a very subtle and devious form of control....

I guess that this is probably the rout of my unplacable anger with twi... The things that I did because twi taught me that God desired/required them. Some of the things that were required had relatively minor consequences...like moving to an area we hated...cause God needed us to move the word..ie North Dakota and Arkansas... Marking and avoiding a life long friend ... Abandoning family and responsibilities... Some of our actions had more sinister consequences...

Well it`s a GOOD thing that God liked your ex better than the other folks who`s houses were being destroyed all around her.. Too bad THEY weren`t praying... Geeze, I don`t know ANYBODY in the path of a tornado that isn`t praying. I guess by that logic, none of the thousands who died as the twin towers collapsed, or any other disaster, like the cal earthquake a few years back were praying either or had family members on the ball. I guess it is just too damn bad God didn`t like them enough to honor THEIR prayers....

As so often has been pointed out, nobody held a gun to our heads to continue our association with twi.....logically therefor we could have just left if everything wasn`t just hunk dory. I think there was a much more sinister weapon utilized to ensure our continued participation with twi, no matter how distatefull or unpleasant our experiences became. Cowgirl related on the treatment of dying thread that ..... that after a year and a half of being in the way corpes program, that when her Dad died of a heart attack totally unexpectedly.... she was told that if he hadn`t split from the wc program...he would have never died. First off, Cowgirl I am so sorry for them kicking you when you were down like that...it is unpardonable and cruel......... I want to make comment on how your situation, this scenario was used time and again to scare the rest of us into cooperation whenever one of us was wavering in our committment. We were told that if we did not honor our vow to God ....that we too would die or be directly responsible for the death of a family member...and then half a dozen scenarios like yours would be paraded in front of us as examples of what to expect if we allowed ourselves to get tricked by satan...... When we had family crisis, dying family members, unexpected pregnancies, health issues...we were still expected to fullfill our commitment to God and the ministry.... There was NO excuse allowable for not completing the program...and THEN we find out...it was a LIFE time committment we made (they never told us this when we signed up did they?) No, as we have been reminded repeatedly, twi did not hold a gun to our heads to enforce compliance with leaderships directives.... It was the fear of causing death to a loved one was what ensured our compliance with leaderships *suggestions* no matter how personally distatefull we found them to be.....it was NECESSARY, because God almighty himself, creater of the universe..... required us to abandon our ailing family members ...negated any responsibility to elderly parents, insisted upon compliance with the abortions ordered, assured that compliance with the mog`s sexual desires was necessary To NOT obey meant being tossed out from the protection of God`s household....we were held hostage imo..... We were taught that if we did not comply....someone we loved would die ...it would be, as in cowgirls case considered ENTIRELY our fault.... It later got so bad that even stopping fellowship with twi would have tragic results to yourself or loved ones (never read THAT as one of the benefits on the green card did we?) as witnessed by the merciless trashing by dm in the poling tradgedy. No..it was not a physical gun to our heads that kept us there....but I believe a real weapon non the less. We endured viscious treatment as well as did some terrible things ourselves ..... being taught and believing that in light of our prior commitment to God we had no choice.

It is natural, it has happened before, we either adapt and survive or we don`t ... plain and simple...that is how it has been happening for millions of years. No .... in the other known instances we didn`t have the current cocktail....but the volcanoes contributed significantly to providing the same type of atmospheric (polution and warming) effects and conditions....wildfires destroyed as many, (there wasn`t anyone to put em out) if not more acres time and again as any cutting in the rain forest ... What has been set into motion began many many years before either of these became issues. Can it be stopped? not likely... It would have to happened regardless of anything we did or did not do.

This very same weather pattern has been happening for millions of years....gradual global warming followed by an ice age....it has to do with currents and atmospheric conditions that have already been set in motion....I think I read that scientists have found evidence of this cycle occuring at least 11 times so far.... The last 11 times this occured certainly wasn`t because of driving suv`s or the sin`s of mankind....I seriously doubt that we are responsible this time.

I am sorry (((Mr. Ham))) No we never get over it. You were never allowed to mourn .... You were expected to suck it up n put on a happy face...

Yeah, I`d have to say that this was sop in some areas of twi.... One lady posted years ago, that when her young niece died ...while the parents were out of the house....(possibly at the funeral?) twig people went into the house and removed every picture and bit of memorabilia connected with the little girl...it was as if she had never existed. One lady even posted once of noticing after several years, that a picture of a deceased pet was allowed to remain on the wall...but there wasn`t one of the deceased child. Pretty brutal....but it was viewed as a shamefull thing...the parents believing had somehow failed the child....dove said that if she ever tried to speak of her son, she was shut up...it was viewed as being *negative* and she just needed to renew her mind.