rascal

It was sound out 84

Yup, everything he taught in hind sight seems to have a two fold meaning. The one that was presented to the world so as to appear a legitimate group...and the deeper darker meanings that gave wierwille complete and total control over our lives :( Yup, everything he taught in hind sight seems to have a two fold meaning. The one that was presented to the world so as to appear a legitimate group...and the deeper darker meanings that gave wierwille complete and total control over our lives :(

Thanks for printing that out for me. Great points :)

So much slaughter of innocent lambs :(

:blink: I couldn`t tell you the difference anymore :)

Though I think it was always rotten, I think that the defining moment came when wierwille picked lcm as his successor. There were several that were smarter, more subtle, and would have done a better job at leading. Thank God I guess, because it took someone as insane as craiggers to just about single handedly dismantle the entire thing. We`d all probably still be there :(

Twiglit, I think that may have been how it appeared. In my opinion, I have to wonder if it was pretty rotten all along. I think that the reason that it seemed to get worse after LCM took the reigns was that he did what everybody else had always been doing...he was just too stupid to keep it subtle like wierwille and his buddies did. Wiereille had built loyalty, people who covered for him, people who hid his sins and invoked lock box. LCM hadn`t built the network of secrecy and subtelty, he wasn`t as good at picking and grooming his victims....he bought into the whole schpeal. I think that he had been at hq for so long and under wierwilles influence, that he really had lost touch with the reality of life outside of his little area. He didn`t understand the need to have support, so he ran off any whom dared try to speak up and introduce a dose of reality. I think that he was really crazy and believed this stuff to the point that he really didn`t think there were consequences. What people on the field began to *feel* in the 80s was the true nastiness of what twi had been all along, it`s just that one by one, the people insulating the rest of us from hq were being run off...as people saw what was really there, they began leaving too...they were replaced with yes men and bullies...there were no people left to stand in the gap against the evil that poured forth from hq. Wierwille knew that his success rested on the shoulders of the people that believed that we were a wholesome Christian ministry and kept up the facade. He knew who had to be placated, whom needed to be run off.... LCM believed it was all about himself as the mog and the product that we marketed.

THAT I believe is the key WG!

Who really cares how many were crucified, or the magi numbers or when Jesus was crucified if you can`t get straight *Love God and Love your neighbor*? I think we were taught to believe it was a huge hairy deal because it distracted us from our actual responsibilities as Christians...I think that we were taught to be disdainful of churches and other Christians so that we wouldn`t get cloes enough to see how a genuine person who is of the spirit lives. Wierwille knew to distance us from outside influence that could give us perspective and balance. He needed us to believe that his teachings were important enough to stick around through all of the crap..... Old wierwille got right the one thing....if you weren`t familiar with the genuine... one was not easily able to identify the counterfit. Once familiar with the genuine, the counterfit is a pi$$ poor substitute.

Well said Krys

Well, *return to pfal* connotes something very distasteful to me....scriptures being made to say anything a person damned well pleases. PFAL seems to be like the gateway *drug* of twi involvement....The seemingly harmless lead into the abusive teachings ... the justification for mistreatment and evil actions. It was the first step down a very dark path. PFAL was the first step leading away from God. I`d not want to ever go back to that dark and lonely period.

Bol, the youngsters that were born into this...yes they suffered..some grievously.....some had horrible crimes committed against them......but they were at least allowed to be born. There were a lot of people that were talked into believing that children were a distraction from *doing the word* that to drop out of a program was to break a vow to God. There were an awful lot of babies aborted by women who felt they had no choice. So I`d have to say that no we didn`t give much thought to the future or the children. We thought we had a greater mission. We thought that we stood approved before God....that these were his requirements. Do you know that wierwille once said that if the country ever went under, if they were coming for us...if it came down to it....between us n the kids, leave em, run for the hills, hide, because we had the word....we needed to save ourselves so that we could pass it on(in a nut shell) Yes that was insane...it was brainwashing at it`s finest....most of us snapped out of it once we left and were again surrounded by normal people, when our families took us back, when we became a part of our communities. Isolation was a huge part of why we were so vulnerable to their teachings. I know that as a parent, as a mature adult, now 2 decades after the fact, what was taught was insane.....It doesn`t excuse what happened, it just explains it. I never hard about beating up unbelievers and rewards were never a driving force with us either. It seemed like we were concerned with just winning the spiritual battle, striking a blow against satan and darkness...It was never about hurting people.

Not according to scriptures....

I didn`t ever think about the fact that there were guys n girls mixed on the wow field, I assumed that it was a mark of the confidence they had in us, of our spiritual maturity....we were on a mission for God....lol silly me. That was the first year ... the second time, 5 years later most were screwing like bunnies or wishing that they could....I thought THAT was a sign of spiritual maturity also :( It is an example of how our moral compass became corrupted. I didn`t ever think about the fact that there were guys n girls mixed on the wow field, I assumed that it was a mark of the confidence they had in us, of our spiritual maturity....we were on a mission for God....lol silly me. That was the first year ... the second time, 5 years later most were screwing like bunnies or wishing that they could....I thought THAT was a sign of spiritual maturity also :( It is an example of how our moral compass became corrupted.

Well..yeah what 17 yr old doesn`t? Thing is...my Mom grew concerned....but by the time she knew something was going on, it was far too late. I had already been taught how Satan would use anybody to try to trick me away from the word. Friends family, anybody who didn`t know the rightly divided word were all suseptible to influence. Bol, I think that the majority of the people I met while in twi were a lot like me....lost lonely kids that thought they found a family and home,who thought they had found a noble cause to fight for. We had a purpose after a life time of dissapointments. I might have met two total arse holes in 10 years. There were a few incidents that raised my eyebrows, but you remember we were taught not to question, not to think evil...we were taught to tightly control our thoughts so that satan couldn`t trick us like he did Eve when she consisdered...No I am not saying it was fair to you kids, I am not saying that we weren`t naieve and foolish. I just don`t think that there were that many that went in with eyes open to the evil and willing to embrace it. We were young folks that had needs...twi exploited those needs and then once we were lured away from family and friends, schools, careers, they had full input into our understanding, identity, and development of our thought processes as we moved from teen to adulthood.. Nearly everyone I met was idealistic and kind. Some of them the finest people I have ever met. Most of us had no notion that what we had devoted our lives to was corrupt. Most of us never concieved of a life that didn`t involve twi. I think that it is a testament to twi`s toxicity and the uselessness of their doctrine that so many fine unsuspecting people were lured in and changed into the legalistic and at times hard hearted, mean people that so many of us became.

Course it wasn`t taught to rank and file believers...that was one of those *you have to be spiritual enough to handle it* teachings. When you heard one of *those*, you didn`t want to act like you WEREN`T mature enough.

Garden, I agree with you....I just don`t think that they are....The bible says that your fruit shows what you are on the inside...Jesus said that was how we could identify one another....not by the label we wear or the works (ie studying) that we do....I think that is a notion that a very evil man planted in our brains....:( What I think is really bad....is that some of us twi folks will be eagerly lined up one day, thinking that we have prophesied in his name, that we have cast demons out in his name...our faces bright with shining expectation...certain in our knowledge .....only to be told...*Depart, for I knew you not* Our scriptural understanding isn`t what is going to matter, because as we all have witnessed ... it doesn`t seem to mean that people aren`t able to behave with great evil and malice. Our actions say it all...our *fruit* shows what is inside....In twi we were taught to explain and excuse why our fruit was not that of the spirit.

Damned right... Peter and Jesus...obey your leader and seer a miracle...pay any attention to your 5 senses, you`d sink like a rock....don`t obey, don`t accept face meltings, you were stiff necked...and you know...I wonder if there in is part of why you have people who are still divided over twi today?? Maybe some liked feeling like spiritual heavies, the recipients are offended by the treatment and can maybe easier see that there were problems.

It doesn`t matter, I will continue to enjoy and participate in this site for it`s stated purpose, in spite of whether any one particular person appreciates my contributions or sees merit, or even believes the legality of such :) I know who I am, I know what I am, in spite of any attempt to paint me as otherwise.

Well, this is just yet another example of the decietfull usage of scripture to achieve their ends....there were the peter walking on the water teachings to show why we should obey first and ignore our 5 senses no matter how crazy what our leader asked us to do....look at the 5 senses, question a command, and we would sink just like peter.... The penalty for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* became First breath teaching... Submit to your husband became ...you and your children will endure any idiocy, any abuse and keep your mouths shut because God works through him first...and even if his decisions put you at risk...you mustn`t step outside of God`s will and disobey... Just to name a few off of the top of my head....It just absolutely insenses me to this day, that they had the gaul to do inflict such great evil in God`s name....that they insisted that we go against our consciousness, our inner voices, our good sense...that we were so sewn into a box by scripture, that it was never a question of denying them...it always boiled down to refusing God.

Thanks Skyrider, I knew a lot of really nice corp people. I wondered why some remained kind and caring. DO you think possibly that the people who were able to remain unaltered....DO you think that the difference between them and the bullies was that maybe they were christian before becoming involved? ...that in spite of our knowledge that we could still be spiritually empty... I wonder if that is why some saw God work even in the midst of the worst that place offered. I guess that I am saying it badly....It just seems like there were two kinds of people in twi.

I never claimed to be authoratative on rape crimes! That is crazy....criminey...... please read carefully....what I AM is outraged over the accounts of rape written, of the accounts of coersion, and manipulation, and the consequences of not complying with sexual demands of vpw and lcm that have been related here, at messiah 7, kristin`s accounts in her book...accounts confirmed by more than one leader. I am sickened, and disgusted, but I have NEVER claimed to be an authority. Please stop saying things like that.

That is impressive Dove, truly. It still isn`t in residence corpes participation. Which is what we are talking about on this thread.

Potato, thankyou for those comments about building our own foundations with our experiences.....Strangely enough Potato, Dove and I`s paths did bring us into contact with some of the same people. Dove, with all compassion, I want to say....that I know how nice it was to be with John (since you brought him up) I was in that state too> I loved the Wiengarners that came after as well...I loved the work days at emporia, the work days at the limb....I loved serving as corpes spouse..opening our home to light bearers and visiting dignitaries...fellowshipping with the incredible believers....and HAD had that been my only experience in twi....I would probably be shoulder to shoulder with you right now in your defense. However, there were other states, other programs, other leaders where cruelty and mistreatment occurred. I experienced some pretty awful things. I heard some very ungodly teachings, saw some things that weren`t right. I saw a lot of the same side of twi that you did, I just saw other stuff that wasn`t as idealistic. I don`t want to argue with you, I understand where you are coming from. I just don`t think that we can completely understand what the rest of these guys endured in residence, not having been there.

Only to you friend. Your nameless faceless informants inflections and mannerisms of 2nd hand information have what kind of credibility when countering the first hand accounts of the people here, accounts by leaders whom are NOT nameless or faceless...that cooroborate tha worst stories of drugging and rape?